Warranty denial and insurance coverage?

1,335 Views | 8 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by 1agswitchin4lanes
tree91
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AG
OK. Spare me the "dear diary" stuff. I have a story that I want to tell. A little background on me: I've replaced complete automotive ACs, so I know a bit about them.

I have a 2022 Lexus ES 350 with 42K on it. We love the car, but a couple of weeks ago when we had 80 degree days, the AC was blowing warm air. It's under warranty, so Mrs. Tree took it into the dealership for service. This is a reputable dealer (not Keating), and they have always been great to work with, but this is our first warranty repair.

After they looked at it, they called me and told me that a rock had damaged the condenser, and it would be $3300 to repair. It wasn't going to be covered under warranty because an outside element caused the damage. However, they said, I could file a claim with my insurance company which would likely cover it under comprehensive coverage.

I'm not buying that this rock damage without evidence, so I ask them to send me pictures. They do, and all I see are some bent fins that you would expect on a 3-year old condenser. There was certainly no large rock damage with a pattern of bent fins together like I'd expect from an impact large and hard enough to cause the condenser to leak. They even put a circle on the picture where they thought it was leaking. I saw no evidence of the leak.

The next morning, I paid the service manager a surprise visit. He was very nice and had the mechanic bring the car around and put it on the lift. The three of us looked at it together, and again, there was no evidence of rock damage. The mechanic pointed out where he thought the leak was, but I saw zero evidence of that and it was clear that he was guessing. I asked if he had put dye in the system to verify where the leak was. He said that he couldn't because their machine couldn't charge the system if there was a leak.

I know that these new R1234 AC systems run at higher pressures, and the mechanic confirmed that as we were talking casually and he mentioned that he's seen the systems blow out pipe welds. This throwaway comment helped confirm to me that the rock story was BS.

I got a call the next morning from the dealer and was told that they would cover the repair under warranty. Good. I called their BS and they knew it.

Where I get hung up is that this sure seems like insurance fraud: Get a warranty repair, claim an outside impact caused the damage, refuse to cover, customer gets insurance to pay for it, everyone is happy, right? 95% of their customers don't know jack about cars and would've gone this route. It stinks.

Thanks for letting me rant.
Corps_Ag12
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AG
I'm sure they make more money from your pocket than the warranty company or the manufacturer.

Warranty repair guides state "x" part price at "y" rate for "z" hours. Your out of pocket repair estimate is probably actual parts cost + shop rate + actual hours. Most dealership shops seem to be run this way because the manufacturers put them in this bind with their "book rates" that the engineer said it should take to replace parts under warranty.
1agswitchin4lanes
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AG
Wow.

How many people just shrug and pay.

This is frustrating.
Furlock Bones
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AG
Yea that's a load of bull. But not surprising. Stealerships never stop stealing.
sts7049
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AG
Quote:

This is a reputable dealer
not anymore
fixer
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The tech (and commission based service writer) knows that the warranty job is only about 60% of a non warranty job. Their incentive is to see if customer will pay out of pocket.

The tech comes up with a specious story about the nature of the part failure.

This puts the onus back on the owner to prove causation or to disprove the tech's story.

This is obviously the opposite of how warranties are supposed to work.

Unfortunately I have seen this far more on Toyota and Lexus dealers and vehicles. The prevailing theory is that the customer must have done something to screw up the vehicle. The part is innocent until proven guilty by someone or something other than us is how it goes.

(I've even had a Toyota dealer try to charge me upfront for diag time on a suspected warranty issue. )

Many years ago when manual transmissions still existed...I had a family member take a Tacoma in for a manual transmission hard shifting issue. They service writer calls me and says they found the problem: someone put a Valeo (aftermarket) clutch in the truck.

The truck had 10,000 miles and I'm supposed to believe someone snuck out in middle of night and put a different clutch in this thing? Or was Toyota hard up for parts so they ran down to the local autozone?

So I went down to the dealer and asked to show me the clutch. Magically it was in the trash.

So I had shop foreman come over and listen to the story. Fortunately he agreed with me and then instructed the tech to also put in upgraded synchronizers that the tech knew better was the actual cause of the hard shifting.

I worked for another domestic OEM dealer for many years where a scam was uncovered. The dispatcher had a deal going with 3-4 techs to split flagged hours.

This was a huge/mega dealer in the Phoenix area.

The scam was the dispatcher would give these techs the gravy work like fluid flushes and basic maintenance preferentially.

The techs wouldn't even do the work. They threw the parts in the trash bin behind the dealer. brand new parts. Then they closed out the work to flag the hours.

This was in 2000. there were 3-4 tech flagging enough hours to make $250,000 per year. They pooled some portion of this for the dispatcher who was in on it. (same dispatcher hated me and always gave me the 15 passenger church van engine jobs)

The downstream issue is the hundreds of people who are thinking their vehicles were being serviced according to OEM schedule when they weren't. Now if they have a real warranty issue the condition of the vehicle could lead to warranty denial.

1agswitchin4lanes
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AG
fixer said:

The tech (and commission based service writer) knows that the warranty job is only about 60% of a non warranty job. Their incentive is to see if customer will pay out of pocket.

The tech comes up with a specious story about the nature of the part failure.

This puts the onus back on the owner to prove causation or to disprove the tech's story.

This is obviously the opposite of how warranties are supposed to work.

Unfortunately I have seen this far more on Toyota and Lexus dealers and vehicles. The prevailing theory is that the customer must have done something to screw up the vehicle. The part is innocent until proven guilty by someone or something other than us is how it goes.

(I've even had a Toyota dealer try to charge me upfront for diag time on a suspected warranty issue. )

Many years ago when manual transmissions still existed...I had a family member take a Tacoma in for a manual transmission hard shifting issue. They service writer calls me and says they found the problem: someone put a Valeo (aftermarket) clutch in the truck.

The truck had 10,000 miles and I'm supposed to believe someone snuck out in middle of night and put a different clutch in this thing? Or was Toyota hard up for parts so they ran down to the local autozone?

So I went down to the dealer and asked to show me the clutch. Magically it was in the trash.

So I had shop foreman come over and listen to the story. Fortunately he agreed with me and then instructed the tech to also put in upgraded synchronizers that the tech knew better was the actual cause of the hard shifting.

I worked for another domestic OEM dealer for many years where a scam was uncovered. The dispatcher had a deal going with 3-4 techs to split flagged hours.

This was a huge/mega dealer in the Phoenix area.

The scam was the dispatcher would give these techs the gravy work like fluid flushes and basic maintenance preferentially.

The techs wouldn't even do the work. They threw the parts in the trash bin behind the dealer. brand new parts. Then they closed out the work to flag the hours.

This was in 2000. there were 3-4 tech flagging enough hours to make $250,000 per year. They pooled some portion of this for the dispatcher who was in on it. (same dispatcher hated me and always gave me the 15 passenger church van engine jobs)

The downstream issue is the hundreds of people who are thinking their vehicles were being serviced according to OEM schedule when they weren't. Now if they have a real warranty issue the condition of the vehicle could lead to warranty denial.




How did they get popped?
fixer
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1agswitchin4lanes said:

fixer said:

The tech (and commission based service writer) knows that the warranty job is only about 60% of a non warranty job. Their incentive is to see if customer will pay out of pocket.

The tech comes up with a specious story about the nature of the part failure.

This puts the onus back on the owner to prove causation or to disprove the tech's story.

This is obviously the opposite of how warranties are supposed to work.

Unfortunately I have seen this far more on Toyota and Lexus dealers and vehicles. The prevailing theory is that the customer must have done something to screw up the vehicle. The part is innocent until proven guilty by someone or something other than us is how it goes.

(I've even had a Toyota dealer try to charge me upfront for diag time on a suspected warranty issue. )

Many years ago when manual transmissions still existed...I had a family member take a Tacoma in for a manual transmission hard shifting issue. They service writer calls me and says they found the problem: someone put a Valeo (aftermarket) clutch in the truck.

The truck had 10,000 miles and I'm supposed to believe someone snuck out in middle of night and put a different clutch in this thing? Or was Toyota hard up for parts so they ran down to the local autozone?

So I went down to the dealer and asked to show me the clutch. Magically it was in the trash.

So I had shop foreman come over and listen to the story. Fortunately he agreed with me and then instructed the tech to also put in upgraded synchronizers that the tech knew better was the actual cause of the hard shifting.

I worked for another domestic OEM dealer for many years where a scam was uncovered. The dispatcher had a deal going with 3-4 techs to split flagged hours.

This was a huge/mega dealer in the Phoenix area.

The scam was the dispatcher would give these techs the gravy work like fluid flushes and basic maintenance preferentially.

The techs wouldn't even do the work. They threw the parts in the trash bin behind the dealer. brand new parts. Then they closed out the work to flag the hours.

This was in 2000. there were 3-4 tech flagging enough hours to make $250,000 per year. They pooled some portion of this for the dispatcher who was in on it. (same dispatcher hated me and always gave me the 15 passenger church van engine jobs)

The downstream issue is the hundreds of people who are thinking their vehicles were being serviced according to OEM schedule when they weren't. Now if they have a real warranty issue the condition of the vehicle could lead to warranty denial.




How did they get popped?


Educated customer was able to show that their fluids were same condition as when they dropped it off.

This was brought to attention of shop director. This was the initiating event.

Shop director just hired new foreman. He and the new foreman investigated the issue personally.

They traced the issue back to same 3-4 techs.

Their pay stubs were huge outlier especially since they weren't working 23 hours a day…

Then they did a stake out and caught the techs throwing the parts kits in the trash.

Then the reynolds and reynolds system was found to have the workorders closed out soon after.

They also saw the same dispatcher was on all the gravy jobs for the same techs.

The director threatened criminal charges unless they fessed up.

They spilled the beans and got fired.
1agswitchin4lanes
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AG
fixer said:

1agswitchin4lanes said:

fixer said:

The tech (and commission based service writer) knows that the warranty job is only about 60% of a non warranty job. Their incentive is to see if customer will pay out of pocket.

The tech comes up with a specious story about the nature of the part failure.

This puts the onus back on the owner to prove causation or to disprove the tech's story.

This is obviously the opposite of how warranties are supposed to work.

Unfortunately I have seen this far more on Toyota and Lexus dealers and vehicles. The prevailing theory is that the customer must have done something to screw up the vehicle. The part is innocent until proven guilty by someone or something other than us is how it goes.

(I've even had a Toyota dealer try to charge me upfront for diag time on a suspected warranty issue. )

Many years ago when manual transmissions still existed...I had a family member take a Tacoma in for a manual transmission hard shifting issue. They service writer calls me and says they found the problem: someone put a Valeo (aftermarket) clutch in the truck.

The truck had 10,000 miles and I'm supposed to believe someone snuck out in middle of night and put a different clutch in this thing? Or was Toyota hard up for parts so they ran down to the local autozone?

So I went down to the dealer and asked to show me the clutch. Magically it was in the trash.

So I had shop foreman come over and listen to the story. Fortunately he agreed with me and then instructed the tech to also put in upgraded synchronizers that the tech knew better was the actual cause of the hard shifting.

I worked for another domestic OEM dealer for many years where a scam was uncovered. The dispatcher had a deal going with 3-4 techs to split flagged hours.

This was a huge/mega dealer in the Phoenix area.

The scam was the dispatcher would give these techs the gravy work like fluid flushes and basic maintenance preferentially.

The techs wouldn't even do the work. They threw the parts in the trash bin behind the dealer. brand new parts. Then they closed out the work to flag the hours.

This was in 2000. there were 3-4 tech flagging enough hours to make $250,000 per year. They pooled some portion of this for the dispatcher who was in on it. (same dispatcher hated me and always gave me the 15 passenger church van engine jobs)

The downstream issue is the hundreds of people who are thinking their vehicles were being serviced according to OEM schedule when they weren't. Now if they have a real warranty issue the condition of the vehicle could lead to warranty denial.




How did they get popped?


Educated customer was able to show that their fluids were same condition as when they dropped it off.

This was brought to attention of shop director. This was the initiating event.

Shop director just hired new foreman. He and the new foreman investigated the issue personally.

They traced the issue back to same 3-4 techs.

Their pay stubs were huge outlier especially since they weren't working 23 hours a day…

Then they did a stake out and caught the techs throwing the parts kits in the trash.

Then the reynolds and reynolds system was found to have the workorders closed out soon after.

They also saw the same dispatcher was on all the gravy jobs for the same techs.

The director threatened criminal charges unless they fessed up.

They spilled the beans and got fired.


This happened to me a while back with a company truck.

I asked them to change the oil , drain and fill transmission and lube suspension points.

They had the truck done in 30 min.

I got home and went under. All grease fittings untouched.
Trans oil was nasty. I asked dealer, the service writer said "oh yeah I watched them do it…" and said they didn't drop the pan, they flushed it. I told them I was
Going to pull and oil sample from the transmission and send it to blackstone, the service advisor said he welcomed it.

Blackstone said the oil was commensurate of a transmission fluid that had over 100K miles on it and there was no chance that there was any fresh fluid introduced or added.

They picked the truck up from work and took it back to the dealer and did what they promised and brought it back washed and filled with gas.


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