The Aggies take on the children of the corn tonight at 6 at the Mitchell Tennis Center. Nebraska has played a lot of close matches of late including losing to Baylor 4-3 in Lincoln. Big match as the Ags need to bounce back after an emotional tough loss to Baylor on Wednesday. We will also have some lineup changes forced by having to sit players due to the number of appearances that are allowed. Probably will have to sit Marcus tonight and Colin on Monday versus Rice, but that is far from certain at this point.

Raven, could you expound upon what the appearance limits are? How do these apply to those teams that only have 6 or so players?

BOOO! for appearance limits. Let the best players play.

never heard of this appearance limit rule....explain

There is a limit on how many "dates" student athletes can compete in a calendar year. Marcus and Colin played almost every tournament in the fall season, meaning that they are going to have to sit for one day in the team season or they'll go over their allotted "dates."

Happens to almost every team every season.

interesting. Guess I never noticed it happening.

Ahh so it's not necessarily a tennis rule, but it just only pops up in tennis because of the fall/spring set-up?

camden has it right to the best of my knowledge. While it may apply to other sports, I have only run into it in tennis.

took the doubles point, 1-0 Ags

Conor wins at #1, 2-0 Ags

Ags up 3-0, but Corn in the hunt in last 4 matches

5-2 Ags

Good win for the Aggies. If Nebraska is really no. 55. I would hate to see what they would look like if they were 15. Several really great matches. Rice on Monday.

Rice is good, so turn out if possible. Bruno Rosas
at no. 1 is a player worth watching. Ags will need
their A game for this match up.

bemer: Agreed. Again will will have an altered lineup with Colin having to sit out the match. Austin Klores played well in doubles, but got injured in the third set of singles and was not competitive from that point on. In any event, a win would go a long way in nailing down a host spot in the round of 64 and 32, which makes it much easier to get to the sweet 16. I'm not sure if Rice is as good as they have been in the recent past, but they always give us one heck of a match.

Per NCAA D1 bylaw 17:

Every team can play a maximum of 25 "dates of competition" per year, with no more than 7 of those being fall tournaments.

Each fall tournament counts as only one "date", even if they are actually 3 days long. Dual matches count as one date. If you play 2 dual matches on one day, it still only counts as one date...which is why you sometimes see teams play a doubleheader against weaker competition - to pad the W-L record or to get the lower guys on the ladder some playing time.

Exceptions: Some tournaments don't count against the total, such as the team indoors and the regionals.

Also, if less than 3 players play in a tournament, it does not count as a date (example: if we were to send just one doubles team to a tournament, it would no count as a date). If more than three student-athletes represent an institution in tournaments at different sites on the same date, the institution must count an institutional date of competition for that date

Summary: It would be impossible for an individual to exceed his appearance maximum if he played only with the team, because the team can only schedule 25 dates...so the theory of the guys having played all of the fall tournaments and therefore exceeding the dates played does not apply.

There might be another explanation that I don't know about, but that is my interpretation of the rules (NCAA rules are all available online BTW http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal)

The only thing I can think of is that we sent 3 or less players (including the guys you mentioned) to a tournament, and therefore it didn't count against our team dates, but it did count against their individual dates. Is this the case?

I will say that I have studied these rules pretty thoroughly and while team dates are mentioned ad nauseam, I can't find a rule about an individual exceeding his dates individually from team dates.

Harry: I really don't know. I started hearing about this earlier in the week, and what I was told that because Marcus had been away from competitive tennis during his mission, the coaches played him whenever they could in the fall. They had hoped that Alexis Klegou would be eligible this spring and they would have more flexibility with the lineup. This happened to us a few years back when Tim was the coach, and I have heard of it with other schools on occassion. I really don't know
how we got caught with Colin, but I guess it is the same type deal. In any event, we survived last night, and hopefully we can get by Rice, and be at full strength against Texas.

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so the theory of the guys having played all of the fall tournaments and therefore exceeding the dates played does not apply.

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yes, it does.

Look guys, I'm not trying to pick a fight and I do not know the coaches. At the same time, I have worked in athletic administration at the D1 level (granted, it was some time ago) and so I think I'm more familiar with the rules than the average Joe.

All I'm saying is that a team cannot schedule more than 25 dates...therefore a player playing only in his teams scheduled contests can't exceed 25 dates. It wouldn't matter if he played in every single event the team plays in, he still wouldn't go over 25 dates.

I know some players play other stuff, ITF tournaments, in the past Madden played Davis Cup, etc., but I would think that this would be our top players (like Austin playing the Open, etc.). So unless the guys in question played something apart from the team that the NCAA considers a "date of competition", then having played all of the fall tournaments wouldn't put them over the number.

The only exception I can think of is what I mentioned - if they had played something on their own that the NCAA considered a "date" or if A&M used the exception (taking 3 or less players to a tournament to not have it count as a team date) but the NCAA still counts it as an individual date of competition.

P.s. - for Colin in particular, there is no way in the world that he has exceeded the dates of competition. He has only played in 13 spring matches and played in only 5 falls events. Even if he had played in the Mansfield futures (not sure if he did or not), that would make 19 total dates, which would mean that he would have had to have played 6 events APART from the team to have hit the limit.

Look Camden, I know that you know the coaches and like I said I'm not trying to pick a fight or trying to make you out to be a liar - I just think that you may have misinterpreted. I do still have friends in tennis coaching at the D1 level and asked one of them about it today. He said that for this to happen is very rare and that it has never happened to one of his players (which means that it doesn't happen to most teams in most seasons and I can't remember it happening to the A&M team since I have been following them - since the mid 90s).



[This message has been edited by Harry Dunne (edited 4/11/2009 8:16p).]

Harry: Undoubadly you know much more about this than I do, but all I can tell you is that it is a very real problem for the Aggies this year, and we sat Marcus against Nebraska, and will sit Colin against Rice. Maybe our coaches don't know what they are talking about, but they sure have spent a lot of time trying to figure out match ups, and how to go about the match last night and the Monday match with less than a full boat. If they are wrong, I sure would like somebody to get them straight before Monday.

Its not up to Bob and Steve, its out compliance guys over at Koldus that are telling them the rules.

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Its not up to Bob and Steve, its out compliance guys over at Koldus that are telling them the rules.

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That is very true, although the coaches do know the basics, like the rules regarding appearances (it would be difficult to schedule without knowing that). Something this basic should also come as no surprise to the coaches even when the Asst. AD for compliance breaks the news. To be at the end of the season and have a crucial player reach the date of comp. max without the coaches knowing it would be terrible coaching and I think that our coaches are way too smart and experienced for that.

I do think that, as Raven said, they might be sat out for matchup purposes especially since we're talking about guys at the bottom of the lineup. Notice that none of the top guys are being sat out? The coaches are too smart to play crucial players in the fall for what is essentially exhibition warm-up when it might end up causing them to miss a crucial match at the end of spring.

Another thing to consider is that it sounds like you guys are pretty close to the coaches and players but no matter how close you are, they aren't going to be 100% forthright with you, especially because of things like Texags and knowing that the tennis community likes to gossip and as they say, "loose lips sink ships".

Maybe Marcus is sitting out because of the 25 and maybe he's not (he HAS played everything). Colin is almost certainly not sitting out for that reason. Even if, lets say just for the sake of argument Camden that you are Colin's dad or even just a big fan that is also friendly with the players. Well the appearance limit thing gives the coaches a nice excuse without having to hurt anyone's feelings or say, "So and so doesn't match up well against the guy he is likely to play vs. Rice...or so and so is playing pretty badly and we have more confidence in the other guy right now". Very understandable but not good for the players to be hearing. Also if Marcus does have to sit out a match, Rice would be a good one for it, as they are having a down year and we are likely to beat them with or without him.

I mean, look - this is not college football but it is important to us, to the players, and especially to the coaches for whom it is their livelihood. If it were me, I wouldn't be giving out infomation that might be posted on an open forum that might be read by our players or eventually reach the ears of opposing coaches.

Obviously this is all 100% speculation...but that's what Texags is for, right? Speculation and acting like you're in the know - which I'll be the first to admit I am not. I do know compliance though.




[This message has been edited by Harry Dunne (edited 4/12/2009 12:00p).]

Had dinner with Steve tonight. Colin played 5 matches in the fall and all 19 matches to date, some only in doubles, but played in all 19 matches. Thus he will sit against Rice, and play against Texas.Conor, Austin, and
Wil did not play in 5 matches this fall, so they are in no jeoprady with the appearance rule. Rice shapes up as a tough match, as they are good at 1 and 2, and competitive in most other lines. Time will tell, but we need a good home crowd tomorrow night.

Sooo sounds like the max is 25 appearances per individual, too?

Correct.

Thanks Raven for the good info. I enjoy the tennis talk on here, especially now that we have something good to talk about again.

...and I apologize for my incorrect statements on the earlier posts. I was looking at Colin's singles results for my totals w/o looking at the doubles.

Hopefully it will be irrelevant against Rice, but it does seem like bad planning to have these guys forced to sit spring matches because they played too much in the fall.

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Well the appearance limit thing gives the coaches a nice excuse without having to hurt anyone's feelings or say, "So and so doesn't match up well against the guy he is likely to play vs. Rice...or so and so is playing pretty badly and we have more confidence in the other guy right now". Very understandable but not good for the players to be hearing.

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that's a matt knoll play. these coaches know what they're doing, and have the respect of the players. they don't need to make excuses. not that that's what you were insinuating, just giving my opinion.

also,

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Hopefully it will be irrelevant against Rice, but it does seem like bad planning to have these guys forced to sit spring matches because they played too much in the fall.

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i doubt anyone thought at the beginning of the season that colin and marcus were going to be figuring into every match in the spring, including the coaches and probably the players themselves. colin and marcus were supposed to be role players on this team...it just turns out that they are stepping up and playing bigger roles than anyone probably expected. we're damn lucky to have those guys grinding it out at the bottom of the lineup.

[This message has been edited by camden creek (edited 4/13/2009 11:02a).]

camden hit the nail on the head with his analysis. Colin has been a very pleasant suprise, both in doubles and singles. Kayvon and Austin Klores both add depth, and I think Austin Klores is a pretty darn good doubles player. Big step up from Franklin, Texas, but he is working hard, and is likely to play again tonight.

not sure how hurt klores is from the other night. his back has been a problem for the past year or more, hope it didnt act up again against nebraska.

No doubt he was struggling in the third set against Nebraska. I think he is ok, but with those kind of injuries, you just never know.