So the A&M mens swimming and diving team finished 24th at the NCAAs this season. Although it keeps "the streak" of top 25 finishes going, are we happy about finishing 24th?

- We scored zero points in individual events
- No diver qualified for NCAAs
- No medley relays qualified for NCAAs

Missouri scored 80 points to our 32.

At the SECs we finished 7th. We were actually in range to finish as high as 4th.

For comparison, Dave Salo took over USC 7 years ago. They finished 4th at the NCAAs this year, just beating our friends in Austin.

We lose Dalton, Han, Lewis, McClure, Wagner, and Wilson. Dalton and Wagner are huge losses. As far as I can tell, the freshmen to swim at SECs were Bolleter, Muzek, Theocharidis and Wallace. They seem to have quietly had a solid season. The current junior class will be very important next season - but do we have an incoming class that brings us the talent we need to move closer to top 10? We need a breaststroker in the worst way. Our distance group is not really competitive. We need four 100 free guys that can go 43 low just to make the B final at NCAAs.

All of the development our coaches have proven they can do is worthless without some incoming talent. Shouldn't we be able to out-recruit Missouri? Finally - Who will they hire to replace Boyd?

Is Missouri the main competition in the SEC? I though Auburn / Georgia were the ones to beat

Anyway, how does Texas talent look for men's swimming / have we been primarily recruiting Texas?

Tamu_mgm- Mizzou, Tennnessee, and LSU are the teams that the men should be beating year in and year out. Auburn, Georgia, and Florida are currently at a different level in the conference meet, but our girls have proven that a few solid years of recruiting and development can get the Aggies to that level.

The Texas talent is great, but unfortunately Eddie Reese at t.u. locks most of it down. He has a solid recruiting strategy where he offers a small scholarship to anyone from Texas that fits his mold. When that is coupled with the tradition of their program and the improvement of his swimmers, it makes it pretty hard for in-state swimmers to turn down an offer.

Spice- You are right on point with your analysis. We need to have solid recruiting classes to replenish the talent yearly. We need freestylers to keep the freestyle relays competitive, a breaststroker to make the medley relays competitive, and more depth in every event. SEC's is all about the lower half of the team getting second swims and scoring points for the team. NCAA's is all about having top tier swimmers score individually and quality people to fill out relays. Neither happened this year.



[This message has been edited by dbcooper (edited 4/1/2013 1:16p).]

- We scored zero points in individual events
Dalton had an off meet. It happens, unfortunately. He could've scored good points for the team.

- No medley relays qualified for NCAAs
This comes down to recruiting. There are plenty examples of swimmers improving in the TAMU Men's program. That's not the problem. The problem (issue?) is the talent of the athletes. It's no secret that Texas can get the top talent in the state and also get perennial B-teamers. Guys that never score at conference choose Texas over us. That needs to change.

The new NCAA Qual standards are also going to change recruiting (hopefully). Superstars are needed on teams to qualify individually. Relays are only a plus at NCAAs now.



[This message has been edited by TheSituation80 (edited 4/1/2013 2:55p).]

The gap to the elites, both in the SEC and nationally, is very wide. I don't think it is realistic for our mens team to sniff that group anytime soon. But we should be in the next group every year. In the SEC we should beat MU, LSU, and Tenn every year in my opinion. During the Big12 era, we often saw MU compete well in season, but finish behind us. Not this year - they beat us at SECs and NCAAs. Their team was deeper and better balanced overall.

Eddie Reese does generally own the state of Texas. But some fast kids go out of state. And Eddie only adds 5-8 swimmers each year. The ones that don't go to Texas almost never choose A&M. We do occasionally get a 5A champion, but not one that Cal or Stanford wants. I don't know how we got Dalton out of Colorado - because we almost never get a kid from out of state.

I think there is something fundamentally flawed in how we recruit Texas and other American high school swimmers. Texas A&M has national buzz now because of Manziel and in swimming with Bultman's ongoing success. But there is zero buzz about A&M mens swimming nationally. I have a feeling that our staff is so hard headed about the kind of team they want that many good swimmers just don't want to come here. I do not see signs that our diving recruiting is solid either. The loss of Patrick, Potvin, and Nel, all recruited by the prior staff, has been costly.

By the way, there is some "trimming" going on at Texas right now. The incoming class is large, and several on the roster will not be back next year. Texas has an incoming instant NCAA finalist in Jack Conger (4:13 500 free) next fall.


[This message has been edited by SpicewoodAg (edited 4/1/2013 1:55p).]

[This message has been edited by FarmersFight03 (edited 4/1/2013 3:13p).]

@FF, I deleted it. This isn't the right place to discuss that. I'm sure you get my point though.

@Spice, Who is being cut from Texas?

[This message has been edited by TheSituation80 (edited 4/1/2013 2:55p).]

@Situation - Gotcha...I agree as well. Not the forum.

[This message has been edited by FarmersFight03 (edited 4/1/2013 3:12p).]

Kerrington Hill was kicked off the team. There are several others, in much better team standing than Kerrington, that are losing their roster spot. Can't list the names right now.

BTW - I don't think Dalton had an off meet. He was just off his SEC times and I think that is as simple as he was likely 100% tapered for SECs. He probably had nothing left for NCAAs. He is an outstanding swimmer. I wish we had four freestylers like him.

Agree with those above who point out that Eddie doesn't totally dominate in-state recruiting. Afterall...Eegan Groome and Daniel Graviss ended up at Missouri afterall, and scored points that helped beat us at SEC's.

If you look at the top 5 ranked recruits in the state this year....none of them are going to Texas. Wisconsin out-recruited us in-state this year. They took the top two. Others are going to Louisville, NC State, and Duke.

Why did Canon Clifton commit to Wisconsin? His dad swam here right?

I heard about Kerr Hill. does anyone know if Dinnocenzo is able to return or if Eddie said goodbye for good?

It'll be very interesting to see where Jay goes with the new hire.
But I'll put forth a few things :

1) Not having a breaststroker, even an average one, is a killer. Even if you get to the point where you have to give more money to an average breast swimmer than you want to, it's not a stroke that others can swim- you just have to find someone you believe has a lot of upside and bite that bullet.

2) Diving, for the program we are(used to be?!), should absolutely be scoring at NC's-even if it's minimal points.

3) I believe Dalton was originally going to Washington, but came to us when that program got cut. Which also seemed to be good for him, as he definitely fitted into our program & university well.

4) Whitney Hite at a power(large) school always seems to target the same type of swimmers as we do - And has fast become a 'sought after coach to swim for'. How we combat this I don't know, but it's food for thought at least.

5) I certainly hope that we are recruiting (nationally &, especially with this point in mind, internationally) on the strength of the SEC and our facilities. This is a slightly open doorway to start stealing some ground out from under Eddie, and I hope we exploit it appropriately.

D'Innocenzo will be returning

I took heat here for talking about the lack of a breaststroker since Breeja is as fast as our fastest guy. But it is a huge problem to not have a 53-54 second breaststroker. Of course we get shut out in the 100 and 200 but it dooms our medley relays.

How about this for a radical idea? Make Bultman the head swimming and diving coach like Baurle and Salo are at Georgia and USC. Hire new assistants as assistant head coaches. The new assistants do not need Texas ties on the mens side. I don't think that matters because I don't think it has helped us so far. We need charisma and a fierce desire to win.

Spice - that ain't gonna happen. Rumour has it Bultman has no interest in coaching the men, he's happy where he is and doesn't want to change anything / doesn't have the personal time. (again, rumour)

Also, for the performances & recruits Jay brings in Vs. what he get's paid, Jay is an absolute steal for A & M. There are plenty of head coaches producing way less for way more.

So, what this leaves us with is simply, who replaces Boyd? Within a realistic, even thought pattern- who can we get that's out there?
Suggestions?

I'll get the ball rolling with this, I do think whoever it is needs to at least like/love what A&M is as a college. Not athletically or anything like that, but just truly believe that A&M offers a lot away from the pool as well. Not the "we have to have a certain, traditional type of swimmer" or anything, just someone who knows and likes A&M as a college.

On top of this, knowing the recruiting landscape in the general area and mid-west region would be a plus.

Lastly- sprint free is important, no doubt, but do we continue to pursue this as blatantly as we have in the past with the new rules? or do we look for a sprint coach with just as much stroke experience now that individual performance means that much more on the national level?

Aquabullet - I have no idea about Bultman's interest in a bigger role here. So I assume you are right about him. Heck if I were him I probably wouldn't want it either.

As for Jay. Why do we care that he is a bargain? What is the difference between his pay and others at schools of our size where "building champions" is a stated goal?

Bultman is an LSU grad. Swimming is a national/global sport, not regional. I think a Texas A&M coach absolutely needs to appreciate A&M. But that doesn't mean he needs to like the Corps of Cadets. He needs to be able to convince a 17 year old swimmer, his parents, and perhaps his club coach that A&M is the place for their son.

Whitney Hite was mentioned. They finished 13th at NCAAs. They don't have a 50M pool. They only have a 5M platform. His roster has just 22 athletes - only two foreign. And now he has a NCAA champion.

I think you guys are actually agreeing on the "liking / appreciating A&M" point. He doesn't need to be die hard, just understanding what it has to offer.

As for combining the men's and women's teams, it's crazy to think that Steve is only one coach removed from the old days when both teams were under Mel. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the teams split in ~1996 then Don coached the women for 2-4 years before Steve took over ~ 2000. I'm sure I could look it up, but I'm lazy.

The liking/appreciating A&M part can't be hard to find in a coach. Eddie Reese was a Florida and Auburn guy. How long did it take him to "get" Texas? Mike Bottom is a California guy - now the national champion coach at a cold weather Big 10 school. Tracy Duchac was a Purdue swimmer. As far as I know she "got" A&M and was successful here.

Any coach for A&M should be able to sell:

- commitment to athletics
- facilities
- academic quality of A&M
- school spirit
- Texas (the state)
- getting a job after graduation

If you listen to Julia Wilkinson's story about choosing A&M - she says more than anything it was Steve's persuasion and charm.

H2O & Spice - you are correct in that we seem to agree on the like/respect A&M deal. Bultman may be an LSU grad, but he SINCERELY appreciates what A&M is & offers beyond the pool. If a coach doesn't like college station/A&M at his or her core, well "It trickles down from the top"

Believe it or not, their are plenty of people who don't like A&M, College Station or the state of Texas in general. There are a few swimmers at 'Zona that have made some choice statements about College Station in the past, believe me.

Holmes being a bargain is a big deal in a male olympic sport, and great for A&M overall. He delivers good value exposure. Make no mistake, at the end of the day, money (budget) matters in non-revenue sports. I don't like it, but it's the way the world works. We could go out and hire Marsh, Salo, Troy and Bottom for 400k each and probably go on to win NC's year-in & year-out, but the program would fold in 6 years due to cost. (Extreme example, but you get the point)

We could discuss what we THINK that we need (and no-one is going to completely fulfill that role), but I'd rather move on and just discuss names.

Who do we think should be on the shortlist?

Great candidate would be:

A former swimmer from a top 5 program in the last few years. It would provide name recognition, somebody young that could be in the program for an extended time period and would be "fresh" from life as an athlete.
Also, it probably wouldn't cost the program too much money. Bultman makes bank. The men's coaches are working on a smaller budget.

[This message has been edited by Thesituation80 (edited 4/2/2013 11:40a).]

Aquabullet - I recognize that many people around the country might not like A&M/College Station.

But there is no reason that should be a primary decision factor for many athletes. Who would normally consider Auburn Alabama a better place than CS? Or Baton Rouge? Or Louisville?

College Station is not Austin or Madison or Palo Alto. But CS can be "sold" to kids if they try. The recruiting trip should be more than a football game and yell practice.

Regarding the cost of the swimming program. The men only have 9.9 scholarships, which automatically reduces its cost at least a bit compared to the womens program. The athletics department reimburses TAMU for the scholarships. And I just can't believe saving $100K on a coaching salary is that important. How valuable is the PR from Breeja's gold medal? How valuable is it when Cammille or Julia give interviews on SwimSwam and Swimming World? I can't believe Hyman can't find the money somewhere.

I don't think it takes $400K by the way. Maybe for Salo, who runs two programs in expensive California. Pat Henry is said to be the highest paid track coach in the US - around $400K. But he has 33 NCs and 150 athletes in his program.

(I wish I were really wealthy because I would contribute enough to make a difference.)

quote:

---

A former swimmer from a top 5 program in the last few years. It would provide name recognition, somebody young that could be in the program for an extended time period and would be "fresh" from life as an athlete.

---

I agree with this.

I think you all are overselling the need to "know and appreciate Texas A&M". I mean, we all get how big that whole family brand is...but really...how long does that take to figure out? How hard is it REALLY? Do you there's going to be a coach who walks into a kid's house and says "ya know, I don't really appreciate what A&M has to offer, but here's why our swimming program is better than the rest of the school."

No. A good recruiter is a good recruiter. I could care less what he knows about A&M coming in. A good recruiter will figure out what he needs to figure out very quickly.

That's who A&M needs to find as an assistant. Someone who's a good recruiter, and then he needs to be given the freedom to recruit.

quote:

---

That's who A&M needs to find as an assistant.

---

I do not really think that is enough. The assistant cannot possibly be convincing enough to turn this boat. Someone mentioned Wilkinson. She never mentioned the assistant coach. Just the head coach. Just a thought.

I'm going to try to keep this short and sweet.

-The diving issue was a one year blip for various reasons, none of which related to the coaching staff. Simply look at what the roster was on the first day of the fall semester and who made it simply to zones in March. We are 10,000% better in this regard than under the previous staff. Please, please do not ever make this comparison. I assure you you do not know what you are talking about in this regard. Some years you just have dumb bad luck. The Lerews are rock stars and they will get the train back on track and quickly at that.

-I don't want to hear anything about A&M being a bad place to swim or live. I've been to Tucson plenty and it's no show palace by any stretch. People are starting to move back here in droves. New businesses are popping up weekly and have been for years now. If you want the complete college experience and the chance to become a better swimmer, A&M is as good a, if not a better, place as any. We're also within 3 hours every major metroplex in the state. Folks, this ain't Lubbock.

-The national imprint A&M has laid right now in swimming, particularly from a women's standpoint, bows to no one save perhaps Georgia and Cal. We have one of the fastest pools in the country (suits or no suits, we STILL own more NCAA records than any other pool). Braden Keith practically runs Swimswam and Chris Harrell and Julia Minks did a ton for CollegeSwimming.com at SEC's and NCAA's. Don't think those three people will ever hesitate to give our program it's due when deserved. Swimming World has been quite A&M friendly as well. The press we get now is 10x what it was 10 years ago and it's all been earned. The media attention we get most schools are starving for.

-The only issue I've ever had with our program is that our recruiting has not been aggressive enough but we haven't always had all the selling points other schools had. But right now, particularly on the women's side, we do. I realize we aren't going to get every person we go after and there are going to be down years every once in a while but having Wisconsin (Wisconsin?) cherry picking kids out of the state is disgusting. Whitney is a great coach but come on. On the women's side we've had our share of good fortune with people like Breeja, Maria Sommer, Sarah Woods, Christine Marshall -- people no one had heard of and we helped turn into All-Americans and U.S. Olympians. We need to start consistently pulling in classes like the one that brought in Sarah and Cammile (known quantities before they stepped on campus) on a regular basis if we want to stay where we are at.

We have as much to offer as any program in the country. We aren't selling oceanfront property in Arizona here. We are selling the opportunity to swim at one of the greatest schools in the country, in one of the great facilities in the country for some of the best coaches in the country. Period.

End of rant.

quote:

---

The only issue I've ever had with our program is that our recruiting has not been aggressive enough

---

So much this.

LOB - This isn't a thread about the women's program.Maybe I misunderstood where you are coming from, or what you are saying, but it seems out of place on this thread at the moment.

-No one on here is saying a bad thing about CS. We generally all love it there (I mean, we are almost all Ags or Old Ags). It was an example, and if you read through everything here, I think it's pretty clear that it was put forth as such.

-No one here is questioning the Lerews. Their name hasn't even been mentioned. We are simply wondering how we went from a lot of points at NC's in diving to none. Nobody pointed any fingers, nobody called anyone out. It was an honest, earnest question from 3 or more people.

-As for recruiting classes, no one in this thread is talking about the women's program. The only mention of it has been Spice asking about the possibility of Bultman working with the men. That's really been it. Heck, we're not even talking about how the team should go about recruiting, just simply putting together things we would like to see in the new coach and what we'd like to see in what we presume might be a new era of men's swimming at A&M.

-If you read through the thread, it's been very civil, straightforward and everyone's opinions have been countered or debated upon fairly and openly. It's rare for these boards to go for this long, on an arbitrary topic, in such a civil manner. Please don't ruin it.

We are generally all here because we care for A&M, it's sports programs and S&D in particular. We would all do well to remember that whenever we write here.

Again, maybe I just misunderstood your post- if so then I hope I can gain a clearer comprehension further down the line and I apologize in advance.

LOB - The women's team is in great shape and better than ever. We all know we should have been 3rd this year at NCAAs. If recruiting simply maintains its quality we should be top 5 every year.

But this thread is about the men. Way different story - I'm sorry. Even during the years of Matt Rose, the Jacobo brothers and Ozzie Gardner no one wrote or talked about A&M swimming. I think we are stuck in a rut and have no idea how to get out of it. I have gotten abused here because the maroon glasses crowd says "but we always beat Missouri when it counts." We didn't this year. We even finished behind LSU at SECs.

Are we going to do the same thing we have done during our 18 year streak of top 25 at NCAAs?

I agree with you about Texas and College Station. It shouldn't be a negative for recruiting. It might hurt more with Texas kids who want to go somewhere else (how did Natalie Hinds get away?). B/CS isn't Austin, but we could and should be a destination for kids who want to leave where they are from. We should be riding Johnny Football's fame and excitement with a coaching staff that buzzes with energy and a plan.

Greg Rhodenbaugh was hired from Arizona a few years ago (2009-2010 season I believe). He has, obviously, changed the team dynamic there. Being the former Zona breast/IM coach has it's recruiting perks. A&M is dealing with a different Mizzou than in previous years.

Cory Chitwood was recently picked up as an assistant at LSU. Any HS swimmer that cares about swimming knows who that guy is. That kind of person is something TAMU needs with the new hire.

quote:

---

We are generally all here because we care for A&M, it's sports programs and S&D in particular. We would all do well to remember that whenever we write here.

---

That's precisely why I posted. I love our program and both staffs -- they're arguably the best on campus in multiple respects and generally I'll defend them more than anyone. However I do think there is a single area we could try to do better in and it's a mission critical one. I don't want to see the men's streak broken and I don't want the women to slip from the status they currently enjoy. A lot of things need to happen in the next year to keep that from happening in that not too distant future.

LOB - I have been here a long time and my interest is the same as yours. However I am not so motivated to defend the status quo as you.

Honestly I don't care about "the streak" when the standard is top 25. A streak of top 15 is much better to brag about.

The 2012 Olympics was exciting as hell to see Breeja and Cammille compete in finals. Watching Rowdy Gaines talk about Texas A&M is incredible. An American A&M swimmer has a !#$% gold medal.

I also thought A&M would never have a Heisman trophy winner in my lifetime. But look at what happened with Sumlin and Manziel. Something needs to change in the mens program for us to take a step forward. I think the following are reasonable goals and should be attainable. We can no longer be satisfied to finish 2nd behind Texas every year (this year we would have finished last in the old Big 12).

#1 - finish in the top half of SEC championships
#2 - an SEC champion, individual
#3 - three divers in SEC A final
#4 - finish 15th or better in the NCAAs (that means a lot of different things must be accomplished)

Spice -
I think if #1 happens, then #4 should generally follow. Barring any major shifts of course.

But maybe that's it, maybe the focus should shift toward's conference champs and individual champions at conference when looking at recruiting.
If it appears there's a great swimmer, in a stroke that the top SEC programs are already stocked in, then that's a clear target for us, yes? I think your medley strokes (especially bk/br) are definitely area's this would work well.

Cal men didn't follow the same old routes as tu (200 free base) or Auburn (dominant relay base) to build up to where they are. They seemed to target blue chip strokers who they knew weren't being approached by rival PAC schools due to them already having those slots filled. Obviously there was other stuff going on, but that seemed to be the general theme in recent years there. Would this not be an approach which would benefit us?
Before someone says "oh that's Cal"- they hadn't won a championship since 1980 until recently, and until Durden showed up had consistently been "moving sideways" and hovering between positions 4-8 for a good decade. Never a bad program but definitely stuck in a holding pattern.

If we got a blue chip bk/br/fly swimmer who top 3'd at SEC's straight out the gate, would others not follow if we recruited them heavily?

And if the top programs already had a stroker, maybe 2 on their roster so they weren't as interested- how hard would it be with our facility and school to convince them that the SEC is where they should be swimming?

I think recruiting strokes based on what other SEC teams have would be really difficult since each team's strengths would change every year. Even Auburn, with a history of freestyle sprinting, could also have a fast flyer or backstroker since many freestylers have a strong #2 stroke.

The SEC scores through 24 places. So team status depends first and foremost on the obvious - get guys into finals. A single superstar is worth a lot - but you can score lots of points with multiple finalists. NCAA swimming really likes freestyle with three relays and five distances. So a team needs 4-6 sprint-to-200 guys. But as we saw this year not having even an average breaststroker (~54 is average now) was costly.

I think a team can be successful without either sprinters or distance. A&M was usually the sprinter team. Omar changed our distance position - but hardly enough in the SEC. You cannot reach the A final without a sub 4:20.

If I could draw up our roster:

50 free - 4 guys under 20 (we had this)
100 free - 4 guys low 43 (we had this)
200 free - 4 guys under 1:35 (we were close)
500 free - 1 guy under 4:20, 1 more under 4:25
1650 free - 1 guy under 15:00

100 back - 1 guy mid 46 (we did not have)
200 back - 1 guy under 1:45 (we have this)
100 fly - 1 guy mid 46 (we had this)
200 fly - 1 guy under 1:45 (we did not have)
100 breast - 1 guy 53 (not even close)
200 breast - 1 guy 1:56 (not even close)
200 IM - 1 guy 1:45 or better
400 IM - 1 guy 3:45 or better

That would give us a 400 medley relay of around 3:08-3:10 (3rd or 4th in SEC). None of these are Morozov or Cordes kinds of times.

I realize we can't just order these guys up from a catalog. So we just gotta work the recruiting to get them on campus!


[This message has been edited by SpicewoodAg (edited 4/4/2013 11:35a).]

I'm pretty sure the Greek backstroker was sub 1:45 in the 200. Frank and PMS were at 1:45 too.

[This message has been edited by Thesituation80 (edited 4/4/2013 10:24a).]