dont they swim against texas tonight? how did it turn out?

As you probably know by now - tu beat us. The score looks close but there was never any doubt. tu didn't put many of their swimmmers in their best events. And if you look at the results - all the events with an 'X' by them are "exhibition" swimmers. What that means is they swam but the coaches decided (probably after the race) not to count their points so the score isn't out of hand. Our best against their best would have produced a finish with tu ahead by at least a factor of 2. Their men's team has incredible depth (example - they have at least 4 guys who swim the 200 free faster than our fastest). We lost a lot to graduation last year - and Byrne's mishandling of the coaching change cost us in recruiting.

Wouldn't it have been the same score as the women's meet? It looks like the men and women both won five events against the horns. I wonder if they both swam the same number of events?

Four of the guys' wins were by Andrew Sullivant or Eric Sehn. I'm betting that Texas doesn't have anyone on the roster to compete with them at the moment.

I don't think it is too scientific how the coaches pick which swimmers are swimming exhibition. They have some idea what the points will be based on the seeding. As the meet progresses they mark some of the swimmers as 'X'. The women's score is probably close to genuine. Not sure how tu didn't win the 200 backstroke since they had two Olympic Trials swimmers in that event. Maybe they had an off night. It is very clear though that tu simply didn't have many of its men in their best events to help keep it close. Sullivant is a top quality sprinter. He may be faster than anyone at tu right now in the 50 free. But tu probably has three or four faster in the 100. I can't judge divers - but Sehn appears to be very, very good. Wait till the Big 12 championships - you will see tu's men's team roll.

A&M needs to recruit much better. Except for Sehn, our three men FR are from Texas and were top 4A swimmers. They're good - but not like Matthew McGinnis and some of tu's other SO and FR. McGinnis swims the 500 free almost 10 seconds faster than our fastest.

The women's team is a different story. Our FR and SO class is outstanding although it seems like Rebecca Sturdy is injured.

It seems odd that Texas wouldn't use at least one of their best sprinters in the 100, especially if they knew Sullivant might get them in the 50. It wouldn't seem like they'd want to do us any favors especially with that Lone Star Shootout going.

Not sure how tu made their choices. They swam some of their best sprinters in the 50 (DiTorro) and the 100 (Weber-Gale). But they didn't swim well. But look at the 200 medley relay. Three of the exhibition tu teams were faster than our "winning" team. I think tu knew they could win the meet without working too hard. I DO think they care about the Lone Star points.

I haven't kept up too closely with the times of either team this year, but the way dual meets tend to work is a swimmer is designated exhibition for the entire meet, so they might place high in one event and low in another and not score in either. Also, dual meets are a perfect oportunity for top swimmers to swim off events in order to qualify for NCAA. The way it works is that if you qualify in 1 event, you are able to swim any event you have "a consideration time" for each even you qualify in. That way a swimmer will qualify in 1 event, then swim 2 (or qualify in 2 and swim 4) at NCAA's. in In addition, swimmers are limited (by rules and fatigue) to a certain number of events (I forget how many), so it sometimes makes sense to stack a relay (worth double points) full of top sprinters in exchange for a place or two in the individual events. Mel used to do this regularly at championship meets. Sometimes coaches even go over their line up together before hand to try to create a competitive meet. Also, I'm sure UT had at least one full workout the day of the meet. Those are just a few thoughts on coaching strategy in dual meets, even when it is part of the lonestar shootout.

Nice explanation. You obviously knew Nash. Are you optimistic, neutral, or pessimistic about the future of the men's team now? What do we have to do to reach top 10 status?

I don't want to be taken with much authority since I was on the water polo team, not on the team. However I have been around swimming as well as the A&M team quite a bit.

As for my view of the future of the team, I have mixed thoughts. After the recent moves by Byrnes, there was a lot of speculation that Jay was given the job with the pressure to produce "or else"... no more swimming. Of course this is pure speculation and I don't think that is the case. Unfortunately, I'm not too optimistic about recruiting for 2 reasons. First, I think that the coaching move put A&M in, at best, the same situation they were before in the race against UT. Second, the crop of Texas HS swimmers is in a mild slump recently (but still one of the best in the nation) and A&M tends to have more in-state swimmers percentage wise comparred to UT. Eddie Reese has such an incredible reputation that it is almost impossible to win a top recruit from UT.

On the upside, I used to hear good things about Jay as a coach from guys on the team and know that he has a lot of integrity. The new assistant seems to be a rising star in the coaching world. I don't know anything about him except what his bio says, but that has impressed me. Also, any change can be enough to shake up the mix and get results. Back in 1995 or 96 when the men's and women's team split, the men started to really improve even though they had the same coaching staff. I really hope A&M swimming breaks through to the top ten, but I don't see it happening for a while. I believe 11th is the highest they have ever finished at NCAA's.

I don't know Nash, but I actually met Holmes last fall - he was recruiting an Austin area swimmer I know. I know Nash has been there forever and we had been improving (slowly) over the long haul. But it didn't seem as if we'd ever reach the top 10. We would never compete for the same national swimmers as UT and Auburn (etc.). So when Byrne let Nash go - I hoped he would do the same thing he did for track - hire a star. But he didn't. And of course he did the worst possible thing - not Holmes per se but gave him a one year contract. At least there is a longer commitment now. The women's team seems to have some real momentum with the new recruits. They just need to perform well at the NCAAs.

PoloAg02,

Just wanted to correct a couple of things that you said that are wrong (no biggie).

"I haven't kept up too closely with the times of either team this year, but the way dual meets tend to work is a swimmer is designated exhibition for the entire meet"

-Not quite right, you can swim an exhibition event and swim a points event during the same swim meet.


"so they might place high in one event and low in another and not score in either"

-see above

"Also, dual meets are a perfect oportunity for top swimmers to swim off events in order to qualify for NCAA. The way it works is that if you qualify in 1 event, you are able to swim any event you have "a consideration time"

-Don't know where you heard this, but you have to make the NCAA "cut"(time) for the event, as far as the consideration time goes, unless there aren't enough qualifiers for that event, only then will they consider swimmers with "consideration times", otherwise you are SOL.



"In addition, swimmers are limited (by rules and fatigue)"
-as far as dual meets, if I remember correctly it is 3 individual events and relays.Has nothing to do with fatigue.
-as far as NCAA, you can qualify in as many events as you can and want

"to a certain number of events (I forget how many), so it sometimes makes sense to stack a relay (worth double points) full of top sprinters in exchange for a place or two in the individual events."

-see above


"Mel used to do this regularly at championship meets. Sometimes coaches even go over their line up together before hand to try to create a competitive meet."

-I swam under Mel and he never did that. Swim meets are competitive as it is and you try to win each one. You don't want to show your cards to the other team before you compete, that is dumb.

"Also, I'm sure UT had at least one full workout the day of the meet."

-so did A&M.


"Those are just a few thoughts on coaching strategy in dual meets, even when it is part of the lonestar shootout."

-wrong again, especially versus tu, you will try to win the swim meet at any cost (without cheating obviously) swimmers will have their chance to make NCAA during the conference swim meet in March.

As far as Mel being replaced by Jay....................not the best moved by our AD.

Jay is a great guy and deserves a chance, however..............if you want to compete with tu, you go and hire a Mark Shubert kind of guy................JMHO

Andyv94 - Do you agree tu knew they had the meet in the bag? And Jay knew it wouldn't be close if Reese put the A team out there? And tu probably made the decision during the meet to switch their B, D, and C 200 medley relays to exhibition?

"Andyv94 - Do you agree tu knew they had the meet in the bag?

Texas won eight of 13 events, including both relays............what do you think

"And Jay knew it wouldn't be close if Reese put the A team out there? And tu probably made the decision during the meet to switch their B, D, and C 200 medley relays to exhibition? "

I am sorry, but I don't follow what you are saying, tu won both the freestyle relay and the medley relay. It doesn't matter if the relay is the B C or D relay that wins.

Coaches sometimes change the designation of the letter to throw the other team off.......for example If you start your swim meet with a win in the freestyle relay by your supposed "C" relay (when in fact it is your "A" relay in disguise) then the other team might get a little shocked and think that the other team is damn good and deep in talent, blah blah blah..........

Again, I am not sure if I answered your questions

Andyv94 - tu did not win the 200 medley relay. At least not according to the official meet results at sports.tamu.edu/sports/games/boxscores/MSW_5239_texas.htm

We did. But tu's B, C, and D relays had the three fastest times. Their A team was the slowest of their four relays. All 4 tu teams swam exhibition.

Andy,
I appreciate the corrections. Like I said in my post, I don't claim to be any authority. I apologize for this post being long and difficult to follow. A few clarifications/questions...

"...you can swim an exhibition event and swim a points event during the same swim meet."

-My mistake.

"-Don't know where you heard this, but you have to make the NCAA "cut"(time) for the event, as far as the consideration time goes, unless there aren't enough qualifiers for that event, only then will they consider swimmers with "consideration times", otherwise you are SOL."

-I believe this was a miscommunication. I am aware of the full process of selection for NC's. From my observation it seems like more often than not fewer swimmers qualify with the "A" cut, which would often leave spots open for those swimmers with the "B" cut. I believe they set the qualifying time at the slower of the “A” cut and the 26th fastest time in the nation, then allow additional swimmers similarly as I mentioned. This may have changed since you were swimming. I could not find the rule for this, but here is the 2002 psych sheet (the most recent I could find): http://www.ncaasports.com/swimming/mens/story/arc_story/11650

"-as far as dual meets, if I remember correctly it is 3 individual events and relays.Has nothing to do with fatigue.
-as far as NCAA, you can qualify in as many events as you can and want"

-NCAA Swimming rule book
SECTION 3.
Number of Events Nonchampionships Meets
ARTICLE 1. a. A contestant is permitted to compete in a maximum of three
events (in any combination of individual and/or relay events) during a
men’s or women’s 13- or 15-event dual, double-dual, triangular or
quadrangular meet. This limit also applies during a concurrent men’s
and women’s 26- or 30-event dual, double-dual, triangular or quadrangular
meet.
b. A contestant is permitted to compete in a maximum of four events including
relays, of which no more than three may be individual events, during
a men’s or women’s 16-event dual, double-dual, triangular or quadrangular
meet. This limit also applies during a concurrent men’s and
women’s 32-event dual, double-dual, triangular or quadrangular meet.

Also, I have known several swimmers that did not swim every event they qualified in at NCAA because they wanted to place better in fewer events, rather than lower in more events.

"-I swam under Mel and he never did that (scrathed individuals for relays). Swim meets are competitive as it is and you try to win each one. You don't want to show your cards to the other team before you compete, that is dumb.

-I guess I have to take your word on Mel not doing that, but I seem to recall more than one occasion where he did. I'll make no comment on the going over line-ups... you're right.

"Also, I'm sure UT had at least one full workout the day of the meet."

"-so did A&M."

-Agreed, A&M probably did too. I didn’t mean to sound like they didn’t, except for that it was in Austin, so UT didn’t have to travel.


"-wrong again, especially versus tu, you will try to win the swim meet at any cost (without cheating obviously) swimmers will have their chance to make NCAA during the conference swim meet in March."

-I was refering more to UT's strategy (since they pretty much had it in the bag). As for making NCAA, I was refering to swimmers who would swim different events at conference, or who already qualified.


I hope this post didn’t come across too argumentative. I respect your opinion as someone who was part of the team and of the system over my own, as someone who was a mere observer. My experiences with the team were purely social, so I’m sure I got plenty of details mixed up over the years.

PoloAg02,

You did pretty darn good on both replies. Actually having read my reply to you, I hope that my responce to some of your comments did not come off as me being an a$$.

Thank you for your input and like you said, it has been a while since I last swam competitively (sp) and some rules have changed.

You are right about swimmers not wanting to swim all of the events that they have qualified for in the NCAA since they want to concentrate on their main events.

Spicewood,

here is the write up from the A&M website


" AUSTIN, Texas- The No. 16 Texas A&M men’s swimming & diving team dropped a 132-107 decision to the No. 9 Texas Longhorns in the State Farm Lone Star Showdown at the Lee and Joe Jamail Swimming Center on Saturday night.

Texas won eight of 13 events, including both relays in pushing the Longhorns to a 5-3 advantage in the Lone Star Showdown. The Aggies end the dual meet season with a 4-3-1 record.

A&M’s dynamic duo of Eric Sehn (Edmonton, Alberta) and Andrew Sullivant (Houston) each won two events for the Aggies in the Longhorns home pool. Sehn stretched his current winning steak to seven with win on both the one and three-meter springboards. Sehn turned in a lifetime-best score of 334.65 on the one-meter which ranks No. 4 on the all-time A&M list. For the first time in four meets Sehn didn’t set a lifetime best on the three-meter but still won handily with a solid score of 345.15.

Sullivant, one of the nation’s top sprinters, won the 50-yard freestyle in 20.13. In the 100 freestyle, Sullivant rebounded from a slow start to come back and take the win in 44.97.

Senior Alfredo Jacobo (Leon, Mexico) turned in an upset win the 100-yard breaststroke, beating Longhorns Christian Schurr and Matt Lowe in a seasonal best time of 55.68.

Other standout performances were turned in by senior Calvin Zielsdorf (El Paso, Texas) in the 200 individual medley and Joe Watson (Houston) in the 100 butterfly. Zielsdorf led for more than 150 yards of the race before finishing second but still turned in a seasonal best time of 1:51.30. Watson finished second in the 100 fly, cracking the 50-second barrier for the first time in his career at 49.92.

The Aggies will take three weeks to prepare for the Big 12 Championships which they will host on Feb. 23-26 at the Student Rec Center Natatorium in College Station.

It's a conspiracy! See the text below - from www.texassports.com It says tu had the fastest time in the 200 medley relay yet says at the bottom they swam it as an exhibition. This writeup says tu won 7 of 13 events, not 8 of 13 as A&M said.

AUSTIN, Texas – Seniors Andrew Davidson (Mt. Juliet, Tenn.), Rainer Kendrick (Birmingham, Ala.), Daniel DiToro (Scottsdale, Ariz.) and Austin McAnally (McKinney, Texas) capped off the ninth-ranked University of Texas men’s swimming and diving team’s final dual meet of the season with the top time in the 200-yard medley relay as ninth-ranked Texas defeated No. 16 Texas A&M, 132-107, in the State Farm Lone Star Showdown on Saturday evening at the Lee and Joe Jamail Texas Swim Center. The win improves the Longhorns to 5-3 in dual meets on the season and Texas now holds a 5-3 edge in points in the rivalry series with Texas A&M.

Texas won seven of 13 total events in the meet. The Longhorns posted the first of three straight wins to open the meet in the 800-yard freestyle relay. The team of sophomore David Donaldson (San Antonio, Texas), Kendrick, senior John Nabors (Spring, Texas) and freshman Daniel Rohleder (Austin, Texas) combined to pace the field with a time of 3:42.07.

Freshman Caleb McDermott (Canyon Lake, Texas) followed with the top time in the 500-yard freestyle (4:31.80) and freshman Matthew McGinnis (Raleigh, N.C.), the Big 12 Conference’s January Swimmer of the Month, followed with the top showing in the 200-yard individual medley with a mark of 1:50.00.

Texas added its fourth and fifth victories when DiToro captured the 100-yard butterfly with a time of 48.93 and McDermott became a two-time winner on the day, finishing in the top spot in the 200-yard freestyle (1:39.60).

Davidson and sophomore Blake Copple (Boise, Idaho) concluded Texas’ individual event winners with victories in the 100-yard backstroke and the 1650-yard freestyle, respectively. Davidson beat out teammate Nathan O’Brien (Sammamish, Wash.) for first in the 100-yard backstroke, 48.79 to 49.44, while Copple finished the mile in 15:53.63.

On the boards, Texas freshman Brian Smith (Carrollton, Texas) posted runner-up finishes, behind Texas A&M’s Eric Sehn, in both the one- and three-meter diving events, with scores of 282.75 and 298.28, respectively.

Of note, the Longhorns swam the final event, the 200-yard medley relay, as an exhibition.

Texas will return to action when it travels to College Station, Texas, where Texas A&M will host the 2005 Big 12 Swimming and Diving Championships at the Student Recreation Center Natatorium, Feb. 23-26.

Thanks Andy. One thing I left out is that I agree with your statement about Byrnes move and Jay. I've thought that it might be possible that there just isn't that big name swim coach out there right now unless you take a chance on a club coach or college assistant. Who knows. I would like to see Jay take the program to the next level, but it'll be tough.

Taking a quick look at the top times for this year it looks like Sullivant and Sehn might be our only points at NCAA. Hopefully a few relays can get in there too. Keep in mind that some guys drop huge chunks of time with a good taper, so you never know what can happen at conference and nationals. Good luck Aggies!

Spice,

Does it really matter who won the relay?? We lost, end of discussion.

H2OPoloAg02,

You know, there are ton of very good club HC in Cali, TX, FL, etc........that is how all big time college and national coaches get started as you well know.

I think what A&M needs to do to compete (really compete) vs tu is to get a HC with a lot of name and prestigue (sp).

I swam under Mark Shubert at Mission Viejo Nadadores before he went to Boca Raton and then college. THis guy is one of the top coaches of all time. While at MVN, he built a club dynasty that has yet to be equaled or come even close to accomplish what was accomplished there under his tutilage(sp).

The guy is a winner every where he coaches, MVN, Boca Raton, Texas and now at USC. Ofcourse he also coached in the Olympics as in LA, Spain and I think Atlanta.........to name a few.

It is guys like these that we need to go after if we are serious about making A&M stand out in the world of swimming.

Andyv94 - you're right. It doesn't matter. My whole point was that the meet was not as close as the score. The exhibition swimmers kept tu's score down. And they didn't put their A team out there. We are far behind tu in men's swimming - that's my point.

I agree with you too about what we need to do to take a big step up in swimming. I hope Jay does very well. I've heard good things about him. Maybe the new up and coming assistant can help us take us where we need to go. Byrne went after proven, nationally recognized coaches for football, women's bball, men's bball, and track. He didn't do that with swimming.

you say jay deserves a chance then you complain that they didnt get a 'stud' coach

it hasnt been a full season yet and you're already making judgements

let's end the speculation and see what happens at the end of the year at ncaas and in recruiting

stupidag,

If you are not close to the program or don't have any experience in swimming,then you don't know what you are talking about.(and I don't mean it in a "you don't know **** and I am so much better then you" kind of thing)

I know Jay, he is a good guy but he is not the type of guy that the program needs to get to the next level. Sorry to say this...........neither was Mel for that matter.

THey are both good to great coaches, however they are not what we need to compete with tu or to be a top 10-5 nationaly every tear.

I would have to agree with AndyV on this. It's a strange opinion to explain, but it seems to be nearly the consensus among people who have been near the program (as well as other programs such as UT and SMU) that I have spoken to. Jay is a great guy who deserves the position because 1) he has been loyal to the program and produced results for many years as a top notch assistant. 2) He may end up being a great head coach, and this is the opportunity to prove or disprove it. When we say, on the other hand, that he probably isn't what the program needs it is because all of the other coaching moves have been sure-fire quick turnarround guys. Jay does not inject excitement into the program and recruiting like Fran, Gillispie, or (from what I hear) the track coach do, and as much or more than other sports, recruiting is the key to success.

Does that clear up the seemingly contradictory statements?

i guess all i can say is that yes, i do know what i'm talking about

Feel free to enlighten us then.

Stupidag - it kinda goes like this to me:

I wish Byrne had hired a nationally recognized coach for men's swimming. But he didn't. So I hope Jay does well and develops the team into a national power.

I got blasted by my post of the football board. Too many people don't care about the "non-revenue" sports at A&M.

I don't know why Byrne didn't try to make a splash with the swimming HC hire. Bynre thinks out every move he makes, like a chess match. He is very good a politics, and putting events in motion that help him eventually get his way. With that being said, his record at Nebraska doesn't bode well for the program. The money was there to hire whoever he wanted. A friend of mine is a past president of the TMF, about 15-20 years back - I'm not quite sure. His statement about Byrne says that sports that don't make money will have difficulty flourishing under Byrne's model - whatver that is.

AndyV - email me on the outside.


"...I will not make my friends run wind sprints for playing soft defense at recess..." X 500 times

TCR - What your friend says about Byrne and revenue doesn't exactly make sense. Only three sports have a chance to make money - football, men's bball, and baseball. women's bbal might break even. Everything else loses money. So Byrne has top quality coaches in football, both bball, track, women's soccer, women's softball, tennis, baseball (maybe not any more, some say), and women's swimming. My theory on men's swimming is that he would be indifferent if it weren't for the fact that Texas has a top team and has kicked our a** for years. My theory also says Byrne so much money on the track coach he couldn't come up with another 150-200K to get a national caliber swim coach. Then he screwed it up by giving Holmes a one year contract. He wasn't thinking at all. At least he reacted and fixed Holmes' contract to eliminate a recruiting weakness.

Just look at the results of the Big12 swimming championships today - we are well placed in women's but not in men's. Texas has six guys in the finals of 200IM to our one. They have the 6 fastest times in 500 free. And a bunch of these guys are FR or SO. They have incredible depth. We have a few near-stars (especially Sullivant) but we are years away from being close to Texas in men's swimming.

Our women on the other hand are getting close to elite status.

Our women are very close to elite status. Remember one thing though, Title IX. We must have women's sports and a lot of them. All women's sports are safe, regardless of revenue. Archery was an exception, but the rise of Equestrian replaced it. Men's sports that are the biggest drain on $$ are the first ones to go at the sign of trouble. Take Nebraska Men's Swimming: Byrne said he cut the program because they were cheating. HIS OWN WORDS! So instead of cleaning up the program, he just cut it. A commitment to the sport would have entailed fixing what was wrong with it. That wasn't done.

Now our situation is totally different. But remember that the current political climate in our house is what ultimately rules the day. I know nothing more than that.

The women's team seems to be on the brink of breaking into the elite. That would be a great accomplishment for A&M swimming, and would hopefully spill over into men's success too.

It is interesting to look at the fact that in the history of the big XII, UT and Nebraska placed 1-2 every year until 2000 when A&M broke into second. The following year Byrnes cut Nebraska's program. The Ags looked like they would be the ones to break into the elite with an 11th place finish at NCAA in 2001. Not sure which direction they're heading now.

I agree with the women's team position. Bultman is doing a good job. He has to fix a recent history of poor performance at the NCAAs. And we need to finish the 400 medley relay without a DQ. We have some very promising FR and SO women swimmers. Megan Rains, Jennie Stratton, etc. are swimming very fast. We need Sturdy back. We have current and future Olympic Trials swimmers.

James Hard and Ryan Loney are swimming very well as freshmen. But we are thin. We are better in distance freestyle with those guys. Historically we have been a sprinter team. Sullivant is fast, but not Matt Rose fast or Ian Crocker fast. And only one sophomore reached consolation or better in 50 free. We are terrible in 100 free and 200 free. Texas as six guys faster in 200 free than us! We are a weak fly team....

I am anxious to see if Holmes was able to recruit for next fall...

I agree, it is strange to see an aggie men's team without more depth at sprints freestyle. One thing that I noticed with Steve Bultman is that he shifted the attitude of the womens team by example and by recruiting. He changed the team from one that had good talent, but wouldn't come close to filling the roster spots (I think the girls have about 32 as opposed to the men's 24) into a team with a full squad and girls that don't "retire" after a couple years. Steve is a hard worker himself. Every morning after the girls finished practice he would (and probably still does) head to the rec weight room for his own workout. However, it took him about 6 years with the program (not sure his exact tenure) to reach this point.

Anyone know how the HS state meet went today? Who might be going to College Station next year?

Bultman has Codie Hansen (Texas 5A Swimmer of the Meet as a jr.) signed sealed and delivered...He also has a stud Canadian IM'er coming too:

http://www.aggieathletics.com/pressRelease.php?PRID=9011

Hansen is seeded first in both 100 free and 500 free today. Vollmer is probably the only girl in Texas that can beat her.

Neither UIL nor TISCA has results yet. A&M should quietly recruit some Longhorn Aquatics swimmers. Not all of them want to be longhorns. They typically go to Westlake and Bowie HS. Watch Andrew Wang, seeded 3rd in 100 fly. He only swims 5 workouts a week and has fantastic strokes.

Chicken,

What is your e-mail..........I seemed to have lost it.

As far as Jay goes and recruting, don't hold your breath.