4-3, down to #5, 6 matches with TX up 3-2. bu won both, tu takes 1st conference loss.
Hopefully Ags will give them their 2nd Saturday.

baylor tennis = everything that's wrong in NCAA sports.

agree

Wow, you have amazing insight...come on, please explain. Don't even tell me that you base your reasoning on the fact that Baylor has a lot of international athletes. Baylor tennis is a powerhouse program. This is exactly what NCAA Sports is all about!

[This message has been edited by BearatKU (edited 4/20/2006 12:10a).]

Oh yeah, NCAA sports is all about allowing guys who couldn't make it as pros a second chance.

On the bandwagon since birth. Raised in the bleachers of Kyle, Olsen, and G. Rollie White

Gee, I wonder why anyone would say such bad things about the Baylor tennis program??

It's not because the team doesn't have any Texans or Americans, it's because they have a coach who's been caught cheating before and is using PROFESSIONAL players to win in amateur athletics. A simple google will give you the NCAA press release on the violation:

http://www.ncaa.org/releases/infractions/2000/2000122102in.htm

And there's a nice article from the NYT that explains the professional aspect. The whole thing was posted here:

http://www.texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?topic_id=611270&forum_id=10

but here are a few select items:

quote:

---

April 11, 2006
Foreign Pros in College Tennis: On Top and Under Scrutiny
By JOE DRAPE
It is a photograph that Benedikt Dorsch, the winner of the N.C.A.A. men's singles tennis title last spring, wishes he could take back. In one hand, Dorsch holds a trophy; in the other, he holds an oversized check, both for winning a professional tournament in Germany five years ago.

"It was not a good idea to hold the prize money up in the air," he said recently.

National Collegiate Athletic Association rules say athletes who have accepted prize money beyond their expenses in any tournament or who have played for a professional team in a sport cannot compete collegiately in that sport. But many such tennis players from other countries do anyway — so many that dozens of college coaches over the past 12 years have complained to the N.C.A.A. about scores of athletes who they contend are professionals.

The coaches have had little success. Although the N.C.A.A. has long proclaimed amateurism as a "bedrock principle," it has declared only three of these international athletes ineligible since 2003, and it has granted exemptions in case after case. Some colleges, emboldened because the N.C.A.A. leaves it to them to police their athletes, have interpreted the principle of amateurism loosely.

The result, these coaches say, is that many international players competing in college are failed professionals.

---

Of course Dorsch was Baylor's #1 guy last year and not the only "failed pro" on the team. Their #2 guy Becker has a similar history. It's also nice that the NCAA is leaving it up to the programs to police themselves.

Here's the other part about Baylor...

quote:

---

"The world is getting smaller, and we've historically had a difficult time attracting the top American players to Waco, Tex., and this small private university," said Matt Knoll, the coach of the Baylor men's team, which was ranked No. 5 in the nation. "We want to be competitive, and our team goal is to win championships, so we've gone to where we can get players."

Knoll's formula has worked. Seven of his eight players are from abroad; Baylor won the 2004 N.C.A.A. title and was the runner-up last year. Seven of the nine players on Baylor's women's team, which was ranked No. 8, are from outside the United States.

Dorsch, a German, won 36 of 38 matches for Baylor last year before winning the N.C.A.A. tournament at age 24. Dorsch said he believed the photograph of him holding the check was taken in Hahnbach, Germany, in 2001 and that his prize money was less than $1,000. The photograph was not distributed by the news media.

He said that in some tournaments, his prize money exceeded his expenses, which meant he was a professional ineligible for college competition according to the N.C.A.A.'s rules. Baylor admitted him on the condition that he pay $5,500 to charity, which he said he did, and the N.C.A.A. did not take any action.

"You ask someone at 16 what you're going to do in five years, and you say, 'I want to be a professional tennis player,' " said Dorsch, who is now playing professionally on the ATP and is ranked No. 242. "I didn't know what the N.C.A.A. was. Sure, I won some money. But over all, I lost more money chasing my goal. It's not like I was Boris Becker or was on the ATP Tour or anything."

Knoll said lawyers hired by the university had vetted his players for compliance and represented them in N.C.A.A. matters. In 2003, Knoll withheld Benjamin Becker — who won the 2004 N.C.A.A. singles title — from a match as a precaution because of his participation on a club team in a German league. A Baylor women's player, Carolin Walter, who has since transferred to Florida State, sat out more than 10 matches as a penalty for playing in a forbidden league, Knoll said.

---

So, that's the issue. It's not international players, it's not just sour grapes from Aggies because Baylor is now winning in tennis. It's how the coach is doing it.

but jeremy bloom can't get sponsorships to pay for his expenses to represent our country in a COMPLETELY different sport...

gotta love the NCAA.

Are you sure you are just not angry because the Aggies didn't think of doing the same thing? The BU program has been reviewed over and over again and no violations have been found. If they change the recruiting rules, then so be it. Until that time, Go Bears! We just won the Big 12 in Women's Tennis and could also win the men's title (we will be cheering for you to upset the Longhorns).

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/20/sports/tennis/20tennis.html?ex=1146110400&en=13e82c2090f1eeba&ei=5070&emc=eta1

Looks like Dorsch took more money after "paying back" says the latest from the New York Times. Maybe just the tip of the iceberg? Interesting that the NY Times has taken a sudden interest in Baylor and the topic of pros in college tennis.

[This message has been edited by AgTenGod (edited 4/20/2006 5:23p).]

I have always thought that the "paying back" ploy was a little suspicious, and not just in this case. Where do the athletes get the money to pay back?

"On the eve of the N.C.A.A. tournament in May 2003, Dorsch said, he was reinstated by the N.C.A.A. without having to sit out any matches after he agreed to donate to charity about $5,500, which he said he had done. At the time, the N.C.A.A. allowed reinstatement based on such repayment."

So a college kid just whips out $5500 to give to charity, where there is smoke there is fire. Knoll is a cheater, just like Dave Bliss.

And, yes, our team beat baylor 4-3.

"The BU program has been reviewed over and over again and no violations have been found."

Of course this is not true. My above post has a link to the NCAA press release about Knoll's violation at Baylor. I guess you meant to say "no violations have been found concerning recruiting of international players."

My reason for posting was to support the statement by houstontexan: "baylor tennis = everything that's wrong in NCAA sports". The other Bear said "Wow, you have amazing insight...come on, please explain"

So, I explained. It's not very hard.

In the last NYT article Gordon Gee sums it up pretty well:

"On Monday in Dallas, Chancellor Gordon Gee of Vanderbilt University asked an N.C.A.A. presidential task force on the future of Division I athletics to look into the matter. He blamed the N.C.A.A.'s confusing rule book and individual colleges' pursuit of loopholes in the name of winning for corroding the association's amateur ideals."

Matt Knoll is a confirmed cheat who fits the right into the above statement. Whether the NCAA will do anything about him is another question.


[This message has been edited by whasty (edited 4/21/2006 11:19a).]

Where was all the moral outrage when Jackie and RC were doing their thing?

Well "sic-head" the moral outrage is why Jackie had to resign and RC was never a part of that. If Jackie had the same "leniency" as Knoll, then we would have already won 3 NC's by now. The NCAA guidelines on tennis are a joke. I blame the NCAA for being cowards and Knoll for having no personal ethics. And BTW, we beat you 4-3 with 4 Texans, 1 Florida and 1 Oregon!! Whoop!

The moral outrage about Baylor tennis has been going on for a long,long time. This has never been about the individual players who I have found to be good competitiors. The mens program at Baylor has bent or broken every rule that you can imagine in an effort to win. Where is there any honor.... Not at Baylor as it relates to tennis. This is very difficult to admit as I have one more degree from Baylor than nearly everyone associated with the Baylor tennis program will ever have. Very sad.

The big difference between Sherrill and Knoll is that A&M got caught redhanded while Baylor self-reported the violation that they uncovered which the NCAA report even states that Knoll received bad advice from the compliance department.

But hey, Knoll's a bad guy and it's nearly NCAA Tournament time, so like clockwork, the whining and accusations start up again, probably instigated by the usual suspects.

Raven, it's an embarrassment that you have a Baylor degree, assuming it's true. I don't claim to know anything about tennis graduation rates, but I do know that Becker and Dortsch were multiple All-Big 12 Academic selections and didn't take easy majors...Becker was a finance and international business major and Dortsch majored in entrepreneurship and international business.

baylor is full of sh*t.

I am very proud of my degree from Baylor. I am very encouraged with the progress of Coach Morris, Coach Drew, and many other very fine people associated with Baylor University. That said, the tennis program represents what is the worst in college athletics....win at all cost. As I said this is not about the individual athletes who play for Baylor. They are simply the pawns in a much bigger game. If the Baylor athletic community and administration do not recognize what is going on in the tennis program, it is only because they refuse to look at the situation with any degree of objectivity. The sad part is that it is not only Baylor, but many other schools who have been dragged into the murky waters of play only for today. It may be that some of the Baylor players have in fact completed their degrees. I hope so, because in the final analysis, that is what the college experience is all about.

Jackie Sherrill has been gone from A&M for 19 years, but you guys keep hanging on to that if it helps you feel better about your tennis and basketball programs today.

My question would be that for those of you who were outraged by Jackie Sherrill, why aren't also outraged by your tennis program?

Finally, I am sure that the NY Times just decided to pick on Baylor because they don't like green and gold.

Sheesh, if you are looking for double standards, look in the mirror.

There is a deeper issue here. Should non US citizens be allowed to play in NCAA sports?

The problem is that the NCAA is both public and private schools. Privates like Baylor, can do whatever they want in the admission/recruiting process because they have no obligation to the people of the state or country they happen to reside in. On the other hand, a public school like A&M has an obligation first to the citizens of its state and, to a lesser extent, the nation itself as a state and federally supported institution.

In theory, amateur athletics represent a chance for young amateur players to go to college on the basis of their playing talents. However, the win-at-all-costs model of modern college sports has turned it from giving local kids in your state a chance to go to college to an all out nationwide search for raw talent, especially in the two money sports where recruits often can not meet the basic academic requirements of the schools they play for.

What we are seeing now is merely the process taken to its logical conclusion in all sports. By their own admission, Baylor University is not an appealing destination for the top Texas or even US tennis players. They can’t recruit top talent at home so they look abroad and find these semi-professional foreign players to come back to the states and compete against amateur US recruits.

UTEP did the same thing years ago in track and field and was a powerhouse program because of it. Do you think ANY top US players were signing with UTEP? The problem is, UTEP is a state school and Baylor is not.

As I see it it’s a problem of fairness. On the one hand, Baylor and other small privates will cry that they can’t compete $ for $ with the large state schools and cant recruit top US talent to their programs. They will say that they are private schools who have no obligation to the citizen of their states or country in the recruiting of athletes.

The state schools, especially the smaller ones with no hope of recruiting outside their home state, much less internationally, will counter that they DO have an obligation to at least keep their recruiting inside the US and so international recruiting is unfair to them, the majority of the NCAA member schools.

Personally, I think that college athletics have already gone too far from amateurism as it is and allowing international players to take scholarships away from US citizens is an indictment of how far out of control the win-at-all-costs mentality has gone. However, It’s not that simple, if it where, then state schools should not be allowed to recruit outside the US and privates could recruit wherever (and almost whomever) they wanted.

The NCAA is a private organization and can make its own rules and frankly, I think they need to recognize the dangerous precedent this sets for all sports and stop it right here right now. They should grandfather the scholarships of all current players and then no more. If any school, public or privates doesn’t like it, then they can reconsider their membership in the NCAA.

The bottom line is that whether state schools think they have some kind of obligation to recruit U.S. kids, that obligation does not exist on paper anywhere and therefore is meaningless. If you're going to allow foreign students to enroll at your school, whether public or private, it's going to be virtually impossible to tell them that they can study in the U.S. but we're going to deny you the opportunity to play sports here, even though you meet NCAA eligibility requirements.

A bigger fairness issue in my opinion, is the whole concept of partial scholarship sports. In baseball, track and other partial scholarship sports, private schools are at a huge disadvantage. If BU offers a kid a half scholarship and A&M offers a half scholarship, if a kid chose BU, it'd cost him way more to go to BU than A&M. Partial scholarship sports need to be changed to some other formula. For instance in baseball, instead of 11.7 scholarships to spread out over a team, you could have 25 "full" scholarships that cover books, fees & tuition. The players could then pick up their own room and board, which should be roughly equal between public and private schools.

i think the NCAA should actively enforce the rules it has set forth. you can't let professionals play and say you encourage the principles of amateur athletics.

if you can't enforce the rules b/c of the huge amount of foreign players, something should be done. letting baylor roll out a quasi euro-pro team out there is complete bull****.