Credit to Quad Dog for sort of bringing this up, when he mentioned in another thread how DC animation dominates over Marvel. Then this idea struck me for what DC should be doing with their movies:

Put Bruce Timm in charge.

Bruce Timm is the guy behind DC animated dominance that dates back to the early 90s with Batman: the Animated Series, then on to Superman, Justice League, Batman Beyond, and producing a ton of great one-off animated films. He created Harley Quinn, and is known for designing the most faithful, fan-loved versions of the DC universe. He made The Question awesome and interesting, for crying out loud.

Maybe most importantly, he created a DC universe that could be populated by Batman as well as Dr. Fate, Superman and The Question, Wonder Woman and Mister Terrific, and all still have ways to shine.

Timm's success, aside from his great taste and interesting characterization, largely is due to the "guest star" formula. Other characters were always passing in and out of each series, crossing over between series, and then parting ways.

Why can't the DC movie universe do that?

Do some solo movies for major characters, but not built like trilogies or long epics. Self-contained stories. Build the thing on Batman, obviously, and start with a team-up. Batman's case takes him into some mystical things, so he crosses paths with Dr. Fate. Superman battles an alien threat with Green Lantern or Hawk Girl. Green Arrow and Black Canary are at the top of the Sears Tower when it gets attached by terrorists and they have to go all Die Hard. Whatever.

Can you eventually bring together the Justice League? Of course. Does every story have to revolve around that core of heroes? No.

Success on the small screen doesn't equal success on the big screen, obviously, but I think it would be a good thing for them to try.

Maybe I'm wrong.

I'll copy my post from the other thread so the thread doesn't go off topic.

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As much as I love Batman and Superman, DC is getting their ass handed to them as far as films go. Sure TDK trilogy was a mega-success, but outside of that, what have they done?

A Superman sequel/remake that received a tepid response at best (though I enjoyed it), a full fledged Superman reboot that was fairly successful (but not enough to avoid having to add Batman to the sequel as a desperate attempt to reach Marvel-type success), and a Green Lantern movie that barely broke even?

That's just not pretty. Everything is riding on Batman v Superman for DC. If that one isn't a huge success (and by that I mean Iron Man 3 levels. Let that sink in.), then it's over for them. They could perhaps salvage things if they somehow put out a great Justice League movie, but they haven't really laid the groundwork for that to be nearly as successful as Avengers was.

I can't help but wonder why they can't run their film universe as well as Marvel has done in the past 6 years. You've got the money, and you sure as hell have got the characters. Maybe they just don't have the right people running things.

I think their plan to have Nolan godfather things proved poor, as he really mailed it in. I wonder if they shouldn't try to hire someone younger and hungry. Hire away Bendis from Marvel to run the narrative side of things, maybe? Probably not possible, but something like that.

I've only started watching Arrow on Netflix and am getting excited for Flash. I wonder how a crossover between tv and movies would play. I don't think they plan to do this, but they might need some sort of Hail Mary attempt to even try to compete with what Marvel is doing.

Think about how Marvel got to where they are now:

The first Iron Man came out in 2008 and teased us with The Avengers. Then came a Hulk movie, an Iron Man sequel (with Black Widow), a Thor movie (with Hawkeye) and a Captain America movie. All of this happened before they finally made an Avengers movie in 2012. There was a nice, slow progression to their plan.

DC makes one marginally successful Superman reboot and then BAM! They greenlight a Batman vs. Superman movie and shove in Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Cyborg and even Lex Luthor. Coming up right after this is the Justice League movie, where they will undoubtedly bring in a half-dozen other characters.

And all of these are directedy by the same person. Marvel at least likes to have different directors bring their own style into their films. I mean, I like Zack Snyder....but all three of these films are going to look and feel exactly the same. And there is no one at WB/DC to tell him any different.

This is where DC does need their own Kevin Feige. And I agree that Bruce Timm would be a good choice. He 'gets' the DC Universe better than anyone else and DC has to have a unifying voice with their franchises or else we are going to continue to get these kitchen sink scripts that show a serious short-sighted vision.

A note to DC: Marvel has a several-year head start on you. Don't think that you need to try and catch up ASAP. Exercise some patience and restraint.

The problem with DC is it's two most popular heroes can't realistically co-exist together. Batman is just a mortal man with zero super powers and superman is effectively indestructible with unmatched strength and abilities. This makes team up movies just seem silly.

DC should just let each of it's heroes stick to their own turf for a while. Don't worry about the crossovers.

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The problem with DC is it's two most popular heroes can't realistically co-exist together. Batman is just a mortal man with zero super powers and superman is effectively indestructible with unmatched strength and abilities. This makes team up movies just seem silly.

DC should just let each of it's heroes stick to their own turf for a while. Don't worry about the crossovers.

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So much this

Iron Man was pretty well grounded but then they brought in a God from another universe and they made that work. If that can work so can Batman/Superman.

Superman sucks

DC is like a football team with one superstar and a bunch of scrubs.

Iron Man is way more powerful than Batman. At least it makes sense that Iron Man could exist in a world with Thor and Captain America. Superman is like a 24/7 Hulk without the rage. I'm not sure what DC can do at this point as it may be too little too late. The comic book movie craze isn't going to last forever. If DC was going to go the Marvel way, they needed to start years ago. As successful as Nolan's Batman trilogy was, his ultra realistic take on the character makes it really hard for me to buy in on any kind of Justice League movie working, even if it is a different take on the him. I think Batman, and then I think of Green Lantern, Superman, Wonder Woman and the Flash, and it just sounds stupid.

To make Justice League work, you have to either dial back Superman's powers, introduce magic or kryptonite, or make his moral code really a limiting factor. Seems like they're probably going with the moral code as to what levels the playing field between Supes and Batman (and whoever).

But, I agree that Superman is a flawed character. As my brother likes to say, "I never wonder how he'll get out of something because the answer is always: I'm Superman, I'll just try harder."

One way around this, which WB opted to do the totally opposite of, is to start Superman off with relatively minor powers. Maybe by the third film he's the Superman we know, but let the guy struggle to get there. The Snyder Superman flew on his first try. So, that bird has flown for the time being.

I really do wish that DC would look toward Bruce Timm for Batman. He's a MUCH different character than the Nolan Batman, for starters, which helps justify the reboot. At this point, from what we know, anyway, why not make the Snyder Batman the same guy as the Nolan Batman, just older? He faked his death, climbs out of the ashes and reestablishes himself as Bruce Wayne, ultimately returned to the cowl, and keeps peace with his drones and his ally, Nightwing. And this is when Zod shows up.

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Superman sucks

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DC is like a football team with one superstar and a bunch of scrubs.

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Batman

Green Arrow has really rocketed up the charts, and I think Flash will as well.

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The problem with DC is it's two most popular heroes can't realistically co-exist together. Batman is just a mortal man with zero super powers and superman is effectively indestructible with unmatched strength and abilities. This makes team up movies just seem silly.

DC should just let each of it's heroes stick to their own turf for a while. Don't worry about the crossovers.

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Rule of thumb is that Batman can defeat any bad guy and any hero because he is so incredibly smart and focused that he has a contingency plan for absolutely everything. His mind effectively makes him a superhero. I don't believe this was shown as much in TDK but it's true to the character. The Joker is arguably his greatest threat because he's so bonkers and unpredictable.

The two have coexisted for years. And Batman has kicked Superman's ass on multiple occasions. When you look at the source and not just the Nolan films you see Batman in space and fighting aliens and all sorts of crazy stuff

[This message has been edited by Seven Psycho Ags (edited 7/30/2014 10:20p).]

Let me preface it by saying this is never going to happen, but how about this idea for making a Justice League team-up movie work...

Superman tries to form a super hero team, but can't get it together for whatever reason. Clashes of personality, etc. Then, for whatever reason, Doomsday attacks earth and kills Superman. Straight up kills him. All the other heroes unite to avenge him and defeat Doomsday, the Justice League is born, and they can go on having as many crossovers as they like because OP Superman is no longer around making the rest of the team look silly.

My problem with a Batman/Superman battle or team up is the that they're so opposite from each other. Batman is at his best in gritty, noir style stories where he's taking on the mob and and serial killers. Obviously it's a comic book, but his stories have a much more real feeling to them.

Superman is from another planet and has the awesome powers and is basically invulnerable. He needs big, cosmic villains that can actually pose a threat go him.

Yes, Batman has beaten and fought along side Superman before, but it takes one of them out of their element. Either Batman has to be even more powerful than he is or Supes has to be powered down.

The "Batman is so smart he can beat anybody" is so stupid. Superman would have to be a complete tard to let some mortal defeat him. Seeing how powerful he was in the last movie, there is no way Batman should have any chance whatsoever in beating him.

I used to read comics, mostly Marvel, but I got into Batman bigtime. He was the grounded, gritty detective who generally stayed in Gotham, dealing with sometimes otherworldly criminals, but even then it had an earthly feel to it. Then I tried out Superman for the first time with Byrne's Man of Steel.

I liked it a lot and it made me understand why that character had such an almost mythological kind of appreciation. He is the god amongst man, all powerful but with a morality that is also above that of the people he's protecting. I lost interest at some point, just because where can you really go with that?

And I definitely never thought "I think Batman and Superman need to be in a story together!" Because they're just not the same kind of story.

[This message has been edited by Dave94 (edited 7/31/2014 12:52a).]

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The "Batman is so smart he can beat anybody" is so stupid.

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Any more stupid than Superman being so powerful he can destroy everybody? Strength is Superman's power, smarts and foresight (and peak physical conditioning) are Batman's. Yeah, Superman could destroy him if they were both naked and locked in a cage, but Batman would probably avoid that.

They can easily introduce kryptonite in the movie (since everyone's still pretending it wasn't in Man of Steel). All it would take is a little bit of that and Batman's power armor and they'd be on the same physical level in the new movie. West Texan is right that Batman has to either make himself stronger or weaken Superman, but that just adds another dynamic to the battle.

Marko, so you think all the Lex stuff is dumb because Superman cant be bested by a human.



I do like the fact that when the JL got started Batman (being the only one who wasnt super) made a dossier on everyone of his super friends and always had a way to neutralize them.

Maybe I was a little harsh with the stupid comment, but I don't know anything about Lex or the comic (probably like the majority of the audience). All I know is what I've seen on screen. From what I've seen with the last Superman, the same Superman that will be in all these movies, and every on screen version of Batman since the 60s, I've never seen Batman was some kind of super intellect or have any kind of ability at all that shows me he can beat him. The difference between Joker, scarecrow, Bane, etc to Superman is astounding. I just have a hard time buying in.

Thanks for the credit on this.
Maybe animation just lends itself better to DC style stories and universe?

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As successful as Nolan's Batman trilogy was, his ultra realistic take on the character makes it really hard for me to buy in on any kind of Justice League movie working.

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Ultra realistic works for a character like Batman, but it's not going to work well for any other main DC characters. You have to embrace fantasy elements to make Superman or Wonder Woman work. You can easily do that in animation. I sometimes think DC tries to hard to be serious and real in movies.
I'm excited about Guardians of the Galaxy because it looks fun. So many Marvel movies were fun, or had characters having fun with their powers. Recent movie Superman is never fun. He's always the tragic super hero with the burden of Krypton and humanity.

Love love love Arrow so far.

The stuff I have seen of Flash is great too.