is there a thread that discusses the safety improvements? the design looks so much like the old version. it has to be safer but how is it safer?

The biggest change: every log touches the ground.

I think they also have started tying every log to the center pole instead of the one next to it. That was one of the big problems of before

Not true. Every log is not tied to centerpole.

But having five not one poles anchored into the earth has to also be a major safety improvement. There are four shorter versions of center pole that the stack grows up around.

[This message has been edited by 3rd Generation Ag (edited 11/20/2005 8:45p).]

do they have a design like in autocad certified by a PE or something? there are a ton of really smart ag civil engineers......

An engineer has been working with them for three years that I know of.

The Windle Sticks do improve stability, but it is not a new concept. In Bonfires past we did something similar, i.e. tie in logs. Most people will remember interlocking the stacks here and there with logs that extended from the stack below and were wired into the stack above, but I distinctly remember when we built it on Duncan sinking first stack logs into the ground at various points around the diameter of stack to stabilize the base as we worked out.

DYG
http://hogs.tamu.edu

Here's the deal -

All logs touch the ground.
5 poles are in the ground - Centerpole and 4 Windlesticks.
Centerpole is not spliced.
Each log is wired to 3 logs - the one directly behind it and the ones directly to the right and left.
Supersets of cable are secured around each tier of logs.

We have a PE which works with the Greys on stack design.

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Most people will remember interlocking the stacks here and there with logs that extended from the stack below and were wired into the stack above

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This was something specifically cited by the Bonfire Commission as a cause of the collapse.

No, the commission report said that wedging was what was at fault. Purposely driving logs from a higher stack down into the stack below it.

Has your PE never recommended the use of actual hardhats rather than helmet liners which I've personally inverted with little effort using a foot or axe handle?

the pots do exactly what we need them to do, protect them from small falling debris and falling objects (penny nail). Other than that, what would a hardhat stop that a liner would not?

A axe should not be swung at a pot, and nobody should be kicked in the head.. if those things happen, there is a larger issue than head protection.

"A axe should not be swung at a pot, and nobody should be kicked in the head.. if those things happen, there is a larger issue than head protection"

You raise some very good points. I might add that nobody was wearing the pots when they were inverted. And I would hope that no turtle fhking could inflict that much damage either.

Out in the woods and next to stack there is plenty above your head that's heavier than nails for wiring or small debris. Hardhats aren't mean't to stop heavy falling objects, rather protect the head from more extensive injury.

Hardhats, not liners, are standard PPE in any construction environment for a reason.

I've seen this asked before on this board.

The response then was

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In 2002, we were on the verge of requiring hard hats instead of pots, but eventually scrapped that. We figured if we were going to follow OSHA standards completely, we would never get anything done.

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I've done industrial construction at chem plants and understand the futility of some of the OSHA requirements.
( i.e. full body harness any time you're working above 6', you would have to do that for changing a lightbulb on an A-frame )

The state doesn't even require its entities to adhere to OSHA, ( I've worked a few years in fire and life safety for the state )

Real hardhats just seems like an easy step for Bonfire to take in the direction of demonstrating safety is of top priority.


EDIT ( I'm not bashing here. I know safety is in mind and I'm glad y'all are keeping this going. Just something that I have thought odd the past few years and never remember to ask when I'm in CS and run into any of you guys. )


[This message has been edited by FHKPLEX03 (edited 11/22/2005 1:51p).]

Au contraire! State agencies answer to SORM, State Office of Risk Management who essentially is THE OSHA for state agencies. They go as far as checking distances from grinding wheels to tool rests, etc. a la OSHA.

But this is a moot point, since Bonfire isn't a state operation. OSHA has jurisdiction over emplyed persons in TX but the unpaid status of Bonfire participants is a sticky wicket.

On the other hand, in a personal injury lawsuit filed by an injured participant against the Bonfire organization, failure of the organization to operate in accordance with accepted industry standards, i.e. hardhats, goggles, chaps for sawyers, approved climbing rope, etc. would not look good for the defendants.

You can sign all the waivers you want but you can't waive gross negligence.

If you are going to do Bonfire, do it right, do it safely, and do it in accordance with the law. Otherwise, you are setting yourselves up for never getting Bonfire back on campus or accepted as an approved off campus student activity.

J - I'm totally with you on the Hard Hat thing, and I wonder how much of the real decisions not to use them are impacted by cost?

A real hard hat cost less than $10.

Thank you for making my point Aggie54. It's not the "stack pots are good enough" argument. It's the "we're too good and smart to use OSHA certified equipment" argument that makes me realize Aggies still have a lot to learn about doing things the right way.

I guess when all else fails, but words into the organization's mouth and hope other jump in too.

It may seem trivial, but are hard hats paintable. If so, then I would say that there was no reason not to switch.

nm

[This message has been edited by Bob Ross (edited 11/22/2005 4:58p).]

3GA, to answer your question, yes, hard hats are paintable. Hart, Krueger and a number of the redpots and crew chief all wore painted hard hats back in the day.

The state of Texas (ie TAMU, u.t. TXDOT, TDCJ, etc) is not required to
follow OSHA. SORM is the state Workers Comp office.

http://www.sorm.state.tx.us/

Mission
The State Office of Risk Management will provide active leadership to
enable State of Texas agencies to protect their employees, the general
public, and the state's physical and financial assets by reducing and
controlling risk in the most efficient and cost-effective manner.

6 years ago I didn't know any better. We were fish and did as we were told. We did not make suggestions or question the way things were done. That flaw was identified and the lesson supposedly learned. I never knew of an incident ( at Bonfire, not work ) in which a hardhat would have made any amount of difference in someone's safety. That's not to say that basic, standard, across industry PPE doesn't need to be used. You're already on the way by requiring steel toe boots and safety glasses at cut. Why not join the rest of the construction world and use hardhats too? You might ask where do you draw the line? I say you don't, there's always room for improvement in safety, you just have to determine how feasible it is to incorporate a new standard/policy compared with the risk of not doing so. This one is quite do-able.

Yes they are paintable.

Cost shouldn't be a factor. I have 2 which I never paid for and I'm sure that through a bit of cold calling, enough free hard hats could be rounded up from local and Aggie owned companies.

Thanks L.

Hope all is well.

[This message has been edited by FHKPLEX03 (edited 11/22/2005 5:19p).]

Good post J

I think the point is if anything falls on you that current pots won't stop...it won't really matter you're squashed.

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I think the point is if anything falls on you that current pots won't stop...it won't really matter you're squashed.

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That is exactly what i was getting at.

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accepted industry standards

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gross negligence

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It's not the "stack pots are good enough" argument. It's the "we're too good and smart to use OSHA certified equipment" argument that makes me realize Aggies still have a lot to learn about doing things the right way.

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if we were going to go OSHA all the way, we couldnt have CUT or STACK in their current re-incarnations.

You think ****ing a log out of the woods is ok? What about the stobs on the ground? Oh that hole you stepped over that everyone called out, what about it? Chopping down a tree with an axe with bystanders, kiss that goodbye.

Stack: wire on the ground, unlevel ground surrounding stack, swings, harnesses without shock absorbers, climbing on stack, ****ing logs again, more than i can count.

I agree that some things could stand to be improved but have you ever worked on a OSHA jobsite, heaven forbid a Union, OSHA jobsite. You cant get damn thing done for the rules.

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if we were going to go OSHA all the way, we couldnt have CUT or STACK in their current re-incarnations.

You think ****ing a log out of the woods is ok? ...Chopping down a tree with an axe with bystanders, kiss that goodbye.

Stack: wire on the ground,..., more than i can count.

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I already answered this with

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You might ask where do you draw the line? I say you don't, there's always room for improvement in safety, you just have to determine how feasible it is to incorporate a new standard/policy compared with the risk of not doing so.

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Risks include safety, legal and public image as others have mentioned above.

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have you ever worked on a OSHA jobsite

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Yes

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industrial construction at chem plants

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I've never implied total compliance. That would be brutal.

I work as a product trainer for On Center Software in The Woodlands, TX. We code and sell estimation software for commercial construction estimators.

I've been out on numerous commercial drywall, roofing and plaster/EIFs jobs in the last few months and I always wear my helmet liner instead of a "hard hat." Three of those jobs were Union OSHA jobs.

The only thing the Union OSHA guy got onto me for? Wearing my Aggie ring without a glove over it and not having a chin strap. I strapped up and put my glove back on and voila, he was satistfied.

OSHA may have "higher" standards, but I don't see how an OSHA certified hardhat is any different than a helmet liner.

I know that there are various grades/classes of hardhats. Anyone know what class the helmet liners fall into?

Scott Coker '92