Amen.
If I didn't know any better you're sounding Calvinistic this morning

10andBOUNCE said:

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Amen.
If I didn't know any better you're sounding Calvinistic this morning

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But, but you have to make a choice, which means you were better or smarter than someone who did not, right???

You don't have to make a choice to be loved. He is the lover of Mankind. You do have to choose to be faithful.

Zobel said:

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You don't have to make a choice to be loved. He is the lover of Mankind. You do have to choose to be faithful.

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Yes and I wonder if there's something we should also say about covenant and the new covenant and what covenant means biblically-speaking and how covenant is a two way street?

A covenant, in biblical terms, is a sacred and indissoluble agreement between God and His people, involving an exchange of persons rather than services. Unlike contracts, covenants are eternal and cannot be broken. Covenant partners bind themselves by their lives to do (or not do) something vis-a-vis the other. Israel bound itself to keep God's Law, and God bound himself to be their God and they his people.

Now we have the New Covenant in the blood of Christ, which begs the question of how are we to bind ourselves to him? We know how Christ binds himself to us. You rightly point out faithfulness. Is that how we bind ourselves in the New Covenant (serious question)?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Amen.
If I didn't know any better you're sounding Calvinistic this morning

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It is those pesky passed over or pre ordained people to eternal torment that keeps me from agreeing with you on Calvinism. That is not God of the Bible.

He is not worse than Hitler and preordains people to eternal torment with no chance.

Zobel said:

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You don't have to make a choice to be loved. He is the lover of Mankind. You do have to choose to be faithful.

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Amen.

Sticking with the theme of the OP, I thought these from my Catechism in a Year were worth sharing:

66. In what sense do we understand man and woman as created "in the image of God"?

The human person is created in the image of God in the sense that he or she is capable of knowing and of loving their Creator in freedom. Human beings are the only creatures on earth that God has willed for their own sake and has called to share, through knowledge and love, in his own divine life. All human beings, in as much as they are created in the image of God, have the dignity of a person. A person is not something but someone, capable of self-knowledge and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with God and with other persons.

Further reading: CCC 355-357


67. For what purpose did God create man and woman?

God has created everything for them; but he has created them to know, serve and love God, to offer all of creation in this world in thanksgiving back to him and to be raised up to life with him in heaven. Only in the mystery of the incarnate Word does the mystery of the human person come into true light. Man and woman are predestined to reproduce the image of the Son of God made Man who is the perfect "image of the invisible God" (Colassians 1:15).


Further reading: CCC 358-359, 380-381

Really like that. Thanks.

And a great reminder of our free will graciously given to us by God because He loves all of us.

Every human He created is made in His image and loved.

nm

Zobel said:

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You don't have to make a choice to be loved. He is the lover of Mankind. You do have to choose to be faithful.

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Z, I was hoping to get your thoughts on my response to your post above. Here's the link to my response:

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3528057/replies/69667174

Does anyone deserve a chance?

Also the Lawson comment was just low hanging fruit. Ironic considering your OP was about grace lol

cvenag03 said:

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Does anyone deserve a chance?

Also the Lawson comment was just low hanging fruit. Ironic considering your OP was about grace lol

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Scripture clearly states God made us in His image and loves ALL of us. Scripture also clearly states He desires ALL of us to be saved. And that He is love.

So the question is not about us deserving anything. It is about the character of God. And Scripture and the revelation of His character through Jesus.

As far as Lawson, he is actually on my daily prayer list. But I would not let my family be exposed to what I feel are his un Biblical teachings. Still waiting for any example of New Testament preaching that resembles what Lawson and Washer preach on hell. I believe Lawson said that God is actively inflicting punishment in hell. To me, that is blasphemy. And much worse than adultery.

I feel this is very dangerous stuff and can drive children exposed to this out of the church and faith later in life. Stick to Biblical teaching is all I ask.

And interesting that Paul, the greater evangelist in history, never mentioned hell.

Do these guys know something Paul didn't?

cvenag03 said:

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Does anyone deserve a chance?

Also the Lawson comment was just low hanging fruit. Ironic considering your OP was about grace lol

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And I agree with you the comment about Lawson was petty. I deleted it. I pray daily for him and his situation.

Yeah, I am not sure I have really thought about it in those terms, but that makes sense. I guess one thing that feels kind of overlooked sometimes to me is that the way Christ bound Himself to us was not on the individual level, but on the level of nature. He became Man, and that joined Mankind to God. So His mark or union to us is at the humanity level. And, I think "us to Him" also happens at that layer. We have no choice in the matter. Our nature was bound to the divine, and He did that, and that's the end of that.

There's a second layer much like in the old covenant that is based on faithfulness. You could reject being an Israelite, you could not circumcise your children, or just fall away. During the Maccabean period there were Jews who wanted to go into the gymnasium and were wearing, uh.. circumcision disguises. They didn't want to be faithful or Jews, they wanted to be Greek. And I think here it is the same way.

We will all be raised on the last day for judgment. We have no say in the matter. We do have a great deal to do with how that judgment is going to go for us.

Zobel said:

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Yeah, I am not sure I have really thought about it in those terms, but that makes sense. I guess one thing that feels kind of overlooked sometimes to me is that the way Christ bound Himself to us was not on the individual level, but on the level of nature. He became Man, and that joined Mankind to God. So His mark or union to us is at the humanity level. And, I think "us to Him" also happens at that layer. We have no choice in the matter. Our nature was bound to the divine, and He did that, and that's the end of that.

There's a second layer much like in the old covenant that is based on faithfulness. You could reject being an Israelite, you could not circumcise your children, or just fall away. During the Maccabean period there were Jews who wanted to go into the gymnasium and were wearing, uh.. circumcision disguises. They didn't want to be faithful or Jews, they wanted to be Greek. And I think here it is the same way.

We will all be raised on the last day for judgment. We have no say in the matter. We do have a great deal to do with how that judgment is going to go for us.

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Agree.
Just curious, my friend. Do you believe that when we die we are all in the presence of God and for the righteous it will be bliss and for the people who reject God it will be agony?

I'm not sure this is something we can really understand. Have to go with the words of scripture, which are few, and the fathers. But yes, I do think that what you're saying is a consistent scriptural and patristic understanding.

The way it makes sense for me is like little kids who are throwing a fit. You send them to timeout, and tell them that they can get up whenever they want to be happy. But they don't immediately get up... they need to be mad and unhappy for a while. I think some people need to be mad and unhappy, and some people want to hate, and can become trapped by their own hatred where even love feels like hatred. Is this "how it works"? I don't know. But it makes sense to me.

Makes sense to me also. I am convinced salvation is ontological and not judicial. Scripture, in my opinion, teaches that.

Dermdoc, I have seen you post this many times. Can you explain what you mean by salvation being "ontological" and not "judicial"

Zobel said:

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I'm not sure this is something we can really understand. Have to go with the words of scripture, which are few, and the fathers. But yes, I do think that what you're saying is a consistent scriptural and patristic understanding.

The way it makes sense for me is like little kids who are throwing a fit. You send them to timeout, and tell them that they can get up whenever they want to be happy. But they don't immediately get up... they need to be mad and unhappy for a while. I think some people need to be mad and unhappy, and some people want to hate, and can become trapped by their own hatred where even love feels like hatred. Is this "how it works"? I don't know. But it makes sense to me.

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Indeed. God loves us in a way that we struggle to understand. He loves us in that he will respect our exercise of the freedom he gave us. If we choose to be "in the world" instead of abide in him, then he will give us the desire of our hearts.

Ontological refers to the state of our being. So we are synergistically with the Holy Spirit's aid changed into being more Christ like. A process called sanctification or theosis.

Judicial is pretty self explanatory.

And this is a short link that explains it succinctly.

https://www.thefaithlog.com/2024/04/salvation-is-not-juridical-determination.html

And another one that is more what I believe. Yes there is justification, which is judicial in nature, but the theosis/sanctification is a process. That we, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, participate in.

https://growrag.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/forensic-ontological-the-atonement/

And to me, this is what is lacking in Western "evangelization".

dermdoc said:

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Yes there is justification, which is judicial in nature, but the theosis/sanctification is a process. That we, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, participate in.

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I have no disagreements here.

Interesting the saying came up in Sunday School, " we are saved, being saved, and will be saved." I needed clarification because in my understanding the word "save" can't necessarily be used interchangeably. The terms really are, in my understanding, we are justified, being sanctified, and will be glorified. I suppose it just depends on what you mean by "save" during the process outlined in Romans 8:30.

dermdoc said:

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And this is a short link that explains it succinctly.

https://www.thefaithlog.com/2024/04/salvation-is-not-juridical-determination.html

And another one that is more what I believe. Yes there is justification, which is judicial in nature, but the theosis/sanctification is a process. That we, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, participate in.

https://growrag.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/forensic-ontological-the-atonement/

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Thank you for the reply and links. I think I understand your position better now and I agree.

dermdoc said:

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And this is a short link that explains it succinctly.

https://www.thefaithlog.com/2024/04/salvation-is-not-juridical-determination.html

And another one that is more what I believe. Yes there is justification, which is judicial in nature, but the theosis/sanctification is a process. That we, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, participate in.

https://growrag.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/forensic-ontological-the-atonement/

And to me, this is what is lacking in Western "evangelization".

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I don't think you intended those links for me, but I appreciate it just the same. You don't have to persuade me of the truth of ontological transormation, by God's grace, and theosis. I am 100% there.

I think the church has always taught this and that Isaiah 55:10-11, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Romans 5:1-5 and 2 Corinthians 5:17 all speak clearly to this truth.

Quote:

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10 For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
and do not return there until they have watered the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and succeed in the thing for which I sent it. (Isaiah 55)

This illustrates how God's word accomplishes what it declares, paralleling the transformative effect of God's grace. This aligns with the understanding that God's declaration of righteousness effects an actual change in the believer, making them truly righteous. This is manifest in God's declaration, "Let there be light" (Genesis 1:3) and in the institution narrative of Luke 22 where Jesus tells us "This IS my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." ... 20 And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you IS the new covenant in my blood."

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Quote:

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31 The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypta covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jeremiah 31)

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Quote:

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Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us. (Romans 5)

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Quote:

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16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one from a human point of view;[b] even though we once knew Christ from a human point of view,[c] we know him no longer in that way. 17 So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself,[d] not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us; we entreat you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.(2 Corinthians 5)

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