During this month of November, dedicated to the Holy Souls, don't forget to enroll your loved ones in 30 Gregorian Masses. When they get to heaven, they will in-turn pray for you, so please remember to do so.
https://www.tfp.org/daily-mass-for-the-departed/
[url=https://www.tfp.org/daily-mass-for-the-departed/][/url]

I found the the topic interesting so I did a little research.

I guess what is always attracted me to the Orthodox side is that things just really don't change and I don't understand the reason for all the changes on the RCC side.

Disclaimer: I view the RCC as an extremely valid Church.

1. The 30 Gregorian Masses

This tradition is very old and traces its origins to Pope St. Gregory the Great, who reigned from 590 to 604 AD.
According to his Dialogues, a monk in his monastery had died. Pope Gregory ordered that the Mass be celebrated for this monk for 30 consecutive days. At the end of the 30 days, the deceased monk reportedly appeared to a fellow monk, telling him he had been released from his suffering (what the Catholic Church would later formally define as Purgatory) and had entered heaven.
Based on this account, the pious tradition of offering 30 consecutive Masses for the repose of a specific soul became an established devotion, now known as "Gregorian Masses." So, this specific practice dates back to the late 6th or early 7th century.



2. November as the "Month of the Holy Souls"

This is a separate, though related, tradition that developed later.
It grew out of the establishment of All Souls' Day on November 2nd.
This feast day was formally instituted by St. Odilo, the Abbot of Cluny, in 998 AD. He mandated that all monasteries under his authority offer special prayers for all the faithful departed on the day after All Saints' Day (November 1st).
The practice was extremely popular and quickly spread from the Cluniac monasteries to the wider Church.
Over time, this single day of remembrance was extended, and the entire month of November became popularly dedicated to praying for the "Holy Souls in Purgatory."

The Orthodox Equivalent

The Orthodox Church does not have a month-long equivalent to the Catholic "Month of the Holy Souls."
Orthodox tradition focuses its prayers for the dead on specific, recurring days rather than one dedicated month:
Key Memorials: The 3rd, 9th, and 40th days after death.
Annual Memorials: The one-year anniversary and subsequent anniversaries.
Saturdays of the Souls: Several Saturdays during the year, especially during the period of Great Lent, are set aside for the general commemoration of all departed Orthodox Christians.

When did Roman Catholic Practices evolve or stop doing Orthodox prayer schedule?

It's not that the Roman Catholic Church officially stopped them. Instead these ancient customs simply evolved in different directions over the 1,000 years since the churches split:
The 9th day became the 9-day Novena.
The 40th day was largely replaced in popular practice by the 30th day ("Month's Mind") and the 30-day Gregorian Masses.
The 3rd and 7th days, while still in the liturgical books, became less emphasized in favor of the Novena, the Month's Mind, and the One-Year Anniversary Mass.
Essentially, the core practice of praying on specific days remains, but the which days and how they are counted just diverged over the centuries.
The Orthodox Church maintained the ancient tradition of the 3rd, 9th, and 40th days, which has very deep roots.

The Ancient Origins of the Orthodox Practice

The 3rd, 9th, and 40th-day memorials are not a later development. They are an ancient tradition, with theological justifications that were being written down well before the Great Schism of 1054 AD.

Apostolic Constitutions (4th Century): This early Church document, compiled around 375-380 AD, explicitly mentions these days:
"Let the third day of the departed be celebrated with psalms, and lessons, and prayers, on account of Him that arose in the space of three days; and let the ninth day be celebrated in remembrance of the living, and of the departed; and the fortieth day according to the ancient pattern..."
St. Macarius of Alexandria (4th Century): Tradition ascribes to him the most well-known explanation for why these days are significant, based on a revelation from an angel. This teaching (whether from Macarius himself or from his school of thought) became the standard Orthodox understanding

3rd Day: Commemorates Christ's Resurrection and is when the soul, after visiting places it loved for two days, is brought to worship God.

9th Day: After being shown Paradise for six days, the soul is again brought to worship God. The service is held to ask for the soul to be numbered with the nine ranks of angels.

40th Day: After being shown the torments of hell for 30 days, the soul is brought before God on the 40th day for its "Particular Judgment," which determines its state until the Final Judgment. This is done in honor of Christ's Ascension, which occurred 40 days after His Resurrection.

The Orthodox Church has faithfully preserved this specific, ancient, pre-schism practice. The "evolution" or change in customs happened on the Roman Catholic side, where different devotions became more prominent over time.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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A council doesn't have to be ecumenical. There have been several local councils for various reasons.

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I don't think anyone claimed otherwise.

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The question was can the Orthodox call a council. And the answer was only about ecumenical councils. Can they not call local ones either?

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Everybody calls local ones.

A lot of the time it has to do with more church governance and stuff like that. It's not always about the large grand questions. Budgets, committees, missions, etc.

Even the protestants get together and have them every now and then and come out with statements of faith, which I think is kind of funny. I mean, you already have the Bible what else do you need?

Quo Vadis? said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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A council doesn't have to be ecumenical. There have been several local councils for various reasons.

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I don't think anyone claimed otherwise.

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The question was can the Orthodox call a council. And the answer was only about ecumenical councils. Can they not call local ones either?

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Everybody calls local ones.

A lot of the time it has to do with more church governance and stuff like that. It's not always about the large grand questions. Budgets, committees, missions, etc.

Even the protestants get together and have them every now and then and come out with statements of faith, which I think is kind of funny. I mean, you already have the Bible what else do you need?

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There's an ag here, I forget his name but he has 91 in the handle; that simultaneously argues that scripture is self interpretive and boasts about writing several books on scriptural exegesis.

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I always chuckle when you get the solo scriptura guys that will dismiss the Church and Tradition and the Church Fathers will then start telling you to read all the modern books that people they revere have written that they think would be super duper helpful for me to read.

Well, at least sola Scriptura people won't make up things like the idea we need to enroll our loved ones in Gregorian Masses.

Catacomb graffiti on tombs.....

Quote:

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That passage is far from conclusive and the idea that Paul was praying for those already dead would be outside of the norm of what we see elsewhere in his epistles.

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Why does he refer to Onesiphorus in the past tense, and why does he pray for his household?

Your modenity is showing...

10andBOUNCE said:

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My understanding is that Onesiphorus had visited Paul while in prison and was not ashamed of him, and Paul obviously has a closeness to him that extends to Onesiphorus' family. Paul is also acknowledging the service he provided as a key member of the Church at Ephesus. I am not gathering many sources that prove that Onesiphorus had in fact already died - other than of course Catholic sites or writings from the fathers.

I don't really know what that interpretation has to be a "modern take." Because it is not crediting the great Preacher John Chrysostom with his full and complete understanding of this passage and it's head nod to praying for those who are dead? I understand obviously many of these church fathers took that stance, and perhaps they were right. They weren't right about everything. But I still hardly see how that one small group of verses can then be taken to create a doctrine of praying for the dead.

It is kind of incredible the disdain shown to those that hold the belief that scripture alone is our authority. I understand we disagree but it seems like there are some bigger fish to fry.

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I don't want to pile on; I think you need to understand what you're asserting, though.

The gospels weren't written down as a theological treatise from which you can derive every fine point about what the mystery in the Eucharist is, or how a worship service should go, or if salvation is a one time event and when it happens during the process of baptism. The tool you're using is 100% not the reason the gospels were written. They attest to Christ as the messiah, right?

They even tell you that all Christ's deeds and words aren't written down (a second error here, to assume that because they didn't write it down, it's not worth teaching or practicing, or that other traditions weren't handed down). The epistles are not all exhaustive systematic theology either, that you can disprove or disclaim what's being asserted by apostolic traditions.

The clearest tradition of man (created later) is the idea that someone can divine (no pun intended) all things necessary from the Bible itself with no guidance at all. Or that it can be a proof text for all things Christian. It's an abuse of scripture that ignores the very intent of the authors and the way it has always been employed by the church. Read on your own? Sure. Interpret for yourself? No, consult your priest, who is authoritative, for they are entrusted with your soul as a member of their flock.