Historical critical method - Islam does not stand up to scrutiny.

1,490 Views | 22 Replies | Last: 10 days ago by Ag with kids
Stmichael
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AG


Cliff notes for those without the time or who would like to know what's in it before giving it a listen:

Islam stands upon 3 pillars - the Quran, Muhammad, and Mecca. If any of those 3 falls, all of them fall due to the intertwining of the 3 into the history of Islam. As it so happens, all 3 of them lack supporting evidence to show they existed at the time when Muhammad supposedly lived.

Starting with Mecca, the book "Meccan trade and the rise of Islam" details the studies of Dr Patricia Crone - unique among scholars for her ability to read a number of ancient languages from the Middle East around the 6th century - and shows that the city now known as Mecca did not exist until at least 70ish years after the supposed death of Muhammad. Crone goes through every available manuscript looking for mentions of the city of Mecca and finds nothing. Instead, she manages to find mentions of every settlement large or small surrounding Mecca that are contemporaneous to the life of Muhammad. Given that Mecca exists in a desert with no easy access to water, this is a serious blow to the credibility that this city existed from 570 to 632.

This alone is enough to discredit Islam, which claims the perfect preservation of the Quran across time by God. But it goes on. The book has serious problems with origin as admitted to by Dr. Yasir Qadhi. Far from being perfectly preserved across time by God, the Quran actually has no less than 30 surviving distinct Arabic versions. The total number of textual differences between these versions number in the hundreds of thousands. The original manuscripts, of which 6 are held as the oldest, do not begin to show up until over a century after Muhammad's death - a curious fact considering that the Caliphates of the day were the wealthiest kingdoms in the world and had access to plenty of animal skins to record the Quran. Instead, what we find is strong evidence of conflicting versions early on in Islam's history followed by attempts to censor and destroy these variant manuscripts.

Lastly, the supposed prophet himself, Muhammad. As it turns out, this name is not recorded in written history until much later than when Muhammad supposedly lived and died. This is due to the early written Arabic language lacking vowels - it possessed only consonants. Thus the closest to Muhammad that can be found at the time is MHMD, but this presents a problem. In the 7th century, St John of Damascus writes in Greek (a complete language with vowels) about a religion in Arabia that he describes as the Heresy of the Ismaelites, who follow someone he calls Mahmed. However, this name is more akin to a title or an honorific, meaning Praised or Anointed. It is particularly interesting that this title is actually seen centuries earlier in the Old Testament of all places, and thus opens up the strong possibility that the man people call Muhammad is something like King Arthur in that he is a collection of stories about men doing noteworthy things all attributed to one man.

Dr Jay Smith explains this all better than I can. Give it a watch, I think it's very convincing.
CrackerJackAg
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AG
I'm about as anti-Islam as they come

That guy is one of the worst content providers on the Internet. He has the weirdest grift with the weirdest nonsensical logic.

The guy seems pretty low/average IQ and is just so amazed with some of his own points that are so stupid and entirely irrelevant.

I would think is anti-Islam as I am that it would be really difficult to annoy me while begging on Islam, but this guy sure fire did it.
Stmichael
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AG
CrackerJackAg said:

I'm about as anti-Islam as they come

That guy is one of the worst content providers on the Internet. He has the weirdest grift with the weirdest nonsensical logic.

The guy seems pretty low/average IQ and is just so amazed with some of his own points that are so stupid and entirely irrelevant.

I would think is anti-Islam as I am that it would be really difficult to annoy me while begging on Islam, but this guy sure fire did it.


Arguments that are turning Muslims away from Islam are irrelevant? The man has converted more Muslims in a weekend than you ever have, and you're mocking him? What kind of sad clown are you?
Rocag
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AG
If you think the evidence that Muhammad exists is weak just wait until you see the evidence for Jesus.

Seriously though, I'm not a Muslim but if you are going to argue Muhammad didn't exist you're going to need more than an argument that his people's language lacked the ability to spell out his name the way we'd prefer them to.
Sapper Redux
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There are PLENTY of critiques of any religion that don't require denying the existence of places like Mecca or people like Mohammad. Mecca was a trading post in a remote part of the world with low literacy. No **** there isn't a lot of records about it.
Stmichael
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AG
Rocag said:

If you think the evidence that Muhammad exists is weak just wait until you see the evidence for Jesus.

Seriously though, I'm not a Muslim but if you are going to argue Muhammad didn't exist you're going to need more than an argument that his people's language lacked the ability to spell out his name the way we'd prefer them to.


Jesus is a very well documented historical figure. No academic doubts His historical existence, nor His crucifixion.

Muhammad, or at least the Muhammad that Muslims believe in, has very scant historical evidence to support his existence. The Hadith, which are written records of the life and teachings of Muhammad, do not show up until over 200 years after his supposed death. This would be like me writing a biography about a person who fought in the American Revolution based on nothing but oral tradition. And the people who are cited as the source of the Hadith? No manuscript exists penned by their hand. To make matters worse, they cite men who were born decades after the supposed death of Muhammad. The earliest manuscripts of these supposed biographies are 2 centuries removed from the man, and they can't even cite someone who could have theoretically met him.

So I ask you, what is your historical evidence to support that the man named Muhammad whom Muslims hold as a prophet from God actually existed?
Stmichael
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AG
Sapper Redux said:

There are PLENTY of critiques of any religion that don't require denying the existence of places like Mecca or people like Mohammad. Mecca was a trading post in a remote part of the world with low literacy. No **** there isn't a lot of records about it.


And yet, contemporaneous records of small villages near Mecca exist. There are whole maps drawn of trade routes in the area from the 6th century, and there's no mention of Mecca. Why? Because it's geographically isolated and useless for trade as well as barren of any water or vegetation.

But if that's not convincing to you, fine. Show me what convinces you that there was anyone living in that isolated part of the desert in the 6th century.
Sapper Redux
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Believe it or not, scholars have addressed this topic and your position is an extreme minority one.

This guy provides a quick overview, but just as Jesus is seen as a real figure, so is Muhammad.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicQuran/comments/qczyoo/historical_muhammad/
Sapper Redux
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Stmichael said:

Sapper Redux said:

There are PLENTY of critiques of any religion that don't require denying the existence of places like Mecca or people like Mohammad. Mecca was a trading post in a remote part of the world with low literacy. No **** there isn't a lot of records about it.


And yet, contemporaneous records of small villages near Mecca exist. There are whole maps drawn of trade routes in the area from the 6th century, and there's no mention of Mecca. Why? Because it's geographically isolated and useless for trade as well as barren of any water or vegetation.

But if that's not convincing to you, fine. Show me what convinces you that there was anyone living in that isolated part of the desert in the 6th century.


There's a ton of archeological work done on the region and on the existence of Mecca. Start there. Non-Arab maps weren't comprehensive. You won't find Taif or Qaryat Dhat Kahl on those maps and they were major trading posts we know existed. Was Mecca a huge city? Nope. Certainly makes sense as a small village. The Berbers had their own trade networks that the Greeks and Romans never touched.
CrackerJackAg
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AG
Stmichael said:

CrackerJackAg said:

I'm about as anti-Islam as they come

That guy is one of the worst content providers on the Internet. He has the weirdest grift with the weirdest nonsensical logic.

The guy seems pretty low/average IQ and is just so amazed with some of his own points that are so stupid and entirely irrelevant.

I would think is anti-Islam as I am that it would be really difficult to annoy me while begging on Islam, but this guy sure fire did it.


Arguments that are turning Muslims away from Islam are irrelevant? The man has converted more Muslims in a weekend than you ever have, and you're mocking him? What kind of sad clown are you?


That's great.

Yeah, the whole Islam isn't real, it's all made up, it never existed and neither did Mohammad or Mecca are not true.

I'm not a Muslim so I guess keep doing great work out there weird guy telling your stories.

747Ag
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AG
Stmichael said:

CrackerJackAg said:

I'm about as anti-Islam as they come

That guy is one of the worst content providers on the Internet. He has the weirdest grift with the weirdest nonsensical logic.

The guy seems pretty low/average IQ and is just so amazed with some of his own points that are so stupid and entirely irrelevant.

I would think is anti-Islam as I am that it would be really difficult to annoy me while begging on Islam, but this guy sure fire did it.

Arguments that are turning Muslims away from Islam are irrelevant? The man has converted more Muslims in a weekend than you ever have, and you're mocking him? What kind of sad clown are you?

Fr. Zakaria Botros is probably one of the best at bringing Muslims to Christianity.
Maximus of Tejas
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Rocag said:

If you think the evidence that Muhammad exists is weak just wait until you see the evidence for Jesus.

Seriously though, I'm not a Muslim but if you are going to argue Muhammad didn't exist you're going to need more than an argument that his people's language lacked the ability to spell out his name the way we'd prefer them to.
Haha are you kidding me? The historical accounts of Christ are so vast it would take lifetimes for someone to even examine all of the data. There are forests of texts across the world spanning over centuries. You wouldn't even be able to tackle what Russia has in their libraries in your lifetime.

Your take is a very modern liberal assumption.
Maximus of Tejas
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CrackerJackAg said:

Stmichael said:

CrackerJackAg said:

I'm about as anti-Islam as they come

That guy is one of the worst content providers on the Internet. He has the weirdest grift with the weirdest nonsensical logic.

The guy seems pretty low/average IQ and is just so amazed with some of his own points that are so stupid and entirely irrelevant.

I would think is anti-Islam as I am that it would be really difficult to annoy me while begging on Islam, but this guy sure fire did it.


Arguments that are turning Muslims away from Islam are irrelevant? The man has converted more Muslims in a weekend than you ever have, and you're mocking him? What kind of sad clown are you?


That's great.

Yeah, the whole Islam isn't real, it's all made up, it never existed and neither did Mohammad or Mecca are not true.

I'm not a Muslim so I guess keep doing great work out there weird guy telling your stories.


It is easily debunked. It's metaphysics are garbage. However, Muhammad was probably real and he was likely influenced by an Arian priest or Jew.
Rocag
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Maximus of Tejas said:

Rocag said:

If you think the evidence that Muhammad exists is weak just wait until you see the evidence for Jesus.

Seriously though, I'm not a Muslim but if you are going to argue Muhammad didn't exist you're going to need more than an argument that his people's language lacked the ability to spell out his name the way we'd prefer them to.

Haha are you kidding me? The historical accounts of Christ are so vast it would take lifetimes for someone to even examine all of the data. There are forests of texts across the world spanning over centuries. You wouldn't even be able to tackle what Russia has in their libraries in your lifetime.

Your take is a very modern liberal assumption.

When you exclude accounts written hundreds or thousands of years later that list gets narrowed down significantly. There certainly are early sources on the subject, but when concerning only the most relevant of those sources there aren't that many to consider.

I'm mostly ambivalent on the issue. Seems likely to me that Jesus existed in some form, but there's plenty of reason to doubt the accuracy of the stories told about his life. You might argue, but I'd point out there are plenty of stories about Jesus' life that were being told fairly soon after his death that are rejected by mainstream Christianity.

But this board has discussed that topic lots and I'd recommend starting a new thread if you'd like to continue this. The historicity of Muhammad is a much less discussed topic which I find a bit more interesting.
BonfireNerd04
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I am 100% convinced that Muhammad existed.

And that he studied Judaism. (There was a large Jewish community in Medina in those days.) But instead of accepting the faith as-is, he decided to "improve" upon it, changing up some of the Torah's laws and historical narratives. And added some favorable words about Isa (Jesus) in an attempt to appeal to Christians.

Of course, the Rabbis were pretty skeptical of some outsider declaring himself a "prophet" and having God's real message, so rejected this new "Islam" movement. Muhammad got really mad about this, beginning a religious conflict that's lasted for 1400 years.
Stmichael
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BonfireNerd04 said:

I am 100% convinced that Muhammad existed.

And that he studied Judaism. (There was a large Jewish community in Medina in those days.) But instead of accepting the faith as-is, he decided to "improve" upon it, changing up some of the Torah's laws and historical narratives. And added some favorable words about Isa (Jesus) in an attempt to appeal to Christians.

Of course, the Rabbis were pretty skeptical of some outsider declaring himself a "prophet" and having God's real message, so rejected this new "Islam" movement. Muhammad got really mad about this, beginning a religious conflict that's lasted for 1400 years.


There likely was someone that got this all started and posthumously had all these other deeds attributed to him. The earliest written record of Islam is actually from St John of Damascus, who calls it the Heresy of the Ishmaelites. In particular, he calls this man Mahmed (a known title from the area that had been used many times over centuries) rather than Muhammad, and called his teachings Arianism.

Given the number of stories incorporated into Islam that have fictitious origins from other religions (Jesus and the clay pigeons, speaking as an infant, etc) and the fact that it was described as an Arian heresy, it's easy to see what happened. This man called Mahmed heard stories over in Arabia about Judaism and Christianity that he had no way of knowing were fictional and started including them into his own religion.
BusterAg
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AG
I find the Quran interesting in that the vibe of the text completely changes between the parts that he wrote in Mecca vs Medina.

He was clearly a religious prophet in one city, and a war-lord chieftain in the other.

I have no doubt that Muhammad lived.

I put him in the same category of Joseph Smith though. They both married multiple pre-teen children. Many similarities between Smith and Muhammad.

That said, a lot of Mormons are really nice people. So are a lot of Muslims.

I do give credit to Smith though for not teaching violence. The ruffians of the Mormons of old were mostly gathered around Brigham Young.
BonfireNerd04
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Indeed, the Mormons deserve a lot of credit for creating a state doing so well in terms of economics, education, and low crime.
Stmichael
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Sapper Redux said:

Stmichael said:

Sapper Redux said:

There are PLENTY of critiques of any religion that don't require denying the existence of places like Mecca or people like Mohammad. Mecca was a trading post in a remote part of the world with low literacy. No **** there isn't a lot of records about it.


And yet, contemporaneous records of small villages near Mecca exist. There are whole maps drawn of trade routes in the area from the 6th century, and there's no mention of Mecca. Why? Because it's geographically isolated and useless for trade as well as barren of any water or vegetation.

But if that's not convincing to you, fine. Show me what convinces you that there was anyone living in that isolated part of the desert in the 6th century.


There's a ton of archeological work done on the region and on the existence of Mecca. Start there. Non-Arab maps weren't comprehensive. You won't find Taif or Qaryat Dhat Kahl on those maps and they were major trading posts we know existed. Was Mecca a huge city? Nope. Certainly makes sense as a small village. The Berbers had their own trade networks that the Greeks and Romans never touched.

Exactly the opposite is true - almost no archaeological work in Mecca is permitted despite their insistence that it contains the burial site of a great number of historically significant people. And they're cementing (pun intended) that position by building large infrastructure projects directly over where these supposed historically significant sites are supposed to be so that their fraud can never be uncovered.
canadiaggie
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BonfireNerd04 said:

I am 100% convinced that Muhammad existed.

And that he studied Judaism. (There was a large Jewish community in Medina in those days.) But instead of accepting the faith as-is, he decided to "improve" upon it, changing up some of the Torah's laws and historical narratives. And added some favorable words about Isa (Jesus) in an attempt to appeal to Christians.

Of course, the Rabbis were pretty skeptical of some outsider declaring himself a "prophet" and having God's real message, so rejected this new "Islam" movement. Muhammad got really mad about this, beginning a religious conflict that's lasted for 1400 years.

Muhammad could very easily have excised every Jewish tribe in the Hejaz if he wanted to do this, but he didn't. It wasn't until Umar's caliphate that this happened. There are more than 10 Jewish tribes listed in the charter of Medina. Muhammad conflicted with 3.
canadiaggie
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Stmichael said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

I am 100% convinced that Muhammad existed.

And that he studied Judaism. (There was a large Jewish community in Medina in those days.) But instead of accepting the faith as-is, he decided to "improve" upon it, changing up some of the Torah's laws and historical narratives. And added some favorable words about Isa (Jesus) in an attempt to appeal to Christians.

Of course, the Rabbis were pretty skeptical of some outsider declaring himself a "prophet" and having God's real message, so rejected this new "Islam" movement. Muhammad got really mad about this, beginning a religious conflict that's lasted for 1400 years.


There likely was someone that got this all started and posthumously had all these other deeds attributed to him. The earliest written record of Islam is actually from St John of Damascus, who calls it the Heresy of the Ishmaelites. In particular, he calls this man Mahmed (a known title from the area that had been used many times over centuries) rather than Muhammad, and called his teachings Arianism.

Given the number of stories incorporated into Islam that have fictitious origins from other religions (Jesus and the clay pigeons, speaking as an infant, etc) and the fact that it was described as an Arian heresy, it's easy to see what happened. This man called Mahmed heard stories over in Arabia about Judaism and Christianity that he had no way of knowing were fictional and started including them into his own religion.

Wrong, the Fragment on the Arab Conquest dated 636 names Muhammad long before St. John of Damascus.
Stmichael
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canadiaggie said:

Stmichael said:

BonfireNerd04 said:

I am 100% convinced that Muhammad existed.

And that he studied Judaism. (There was a large Jewish community in Medina in those days.) But instead of accepting the faith as-is, he decided to "improve" upon it, changing up some of the Torah's laws and historical narratives. And added some favorable words about Isa (Jesus) in an attempt to appeal to Christians.

Of course, the Rabbis were pretty skeptical of some outsider declaring himself a "prophet" and having God's real message, so rejected this new "Islam" movement. Muhammad got really mad about this, beginning a religious conflict that's lasted for 1400 years.


There likely was someone that got this all started and posthumously had all these other deeds attributed to him. The earliest written record of Islam is actually from St John of Damascus, who calls it the Heresy of the Ishmaelites. In particular, he calls this man Mahmed (a known title from the area that had been used many times over centuries) rather than Muhammad, and called his teachings Arianism.

Given the number of stories incorporated into Islam that have fictitious origins from other religions (Jesus and the clay pigeons, speaking as an infant, etc) and the fact that it was described as an Arian heresy, it's easy to see what happened. This man called Mahmed heard stories over in Arabia about Judaism and Christianity that he had no way of knowing were fictional and started including them into his own religion.

Wrong, the Fragment on the Arab Conquest dated 636 names Muhammad long before St. John of Damascus.



Except the name Muhammad never appears in that manuscript. Syriac, like Arabic at the time, had no written vowels. As a spoken language it had them, but the written language lacked them entirely. The closest this manuscript reads to Muhammad is "MHMT." When you combine this fact with the account from St John of Damascus in Greek spelling his name as Mahmed, then it could be any one of the many warlords of the era being referred to by the honorific Mahmed, or the alternate spelling Mehmet.
Ag with kids
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Sapper Redux said:

There are PLENTY of critiques of any religion that don't require denying the existence of places like Mecca or people like Mohammad. Mecca was a trading post in a remote part of the world with low literacy. No **** there isn't a lot of records about it.

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