***SCOTUS oral argument today: Birthright citiz...errr.... Nationwide injunctions***

12,089 Views | 82 Replies | Last: 10 mo ago by Im Gipper
BMX Bandit
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Oral argument today in the birthright citzenship cases today, but not on the merits of the Trump EO.

Three district courts entered "nationwide injunctions" prohibiting enforcement of the EO as to anyone, not just the people in the case.

Trump administration appealed all, and the circuit courts said they would not stay (stop) the injunctions. so now we are at the supreme court to determine if those injunctions should apply only to the actual litigants during the pendency of the lawsuits. In other words, get rid of the nationwide injunction.

So while there may be some talk about the merits of birthright citizenship, its really a side issue for now.

In short, the question is "can a court issue an injunction that applies to non-parties?"

Arguing the case are: Solicitor General John Sauer (he argued the Trump immunity case), and then the NJ solicitor general Jeremy Feigenbaum and a private lawyer named Kelsi Corkran. 9:00 CDT

I expect Corkran and Feigenbaum will not want this to be about the overall practice of nationwide injunctions, but want to keep it focused on just the facts of this case and why there is no emergency that requires the stay of the injunctions. They know they have an uphill battle on the nationwide injunctions as even Kagan has spoken about how they just don't make sense.

My pre-argument wildass guess is a solid majority (7-2) comes out against nationwide injunctions; plurality opinion that sets out a test for when a nationwide injunction is appropriate, then remands to the district courts to make that determination based on the facts before them. (in before Roberts is compromised and Barret just cares about cocktail parties)

Should noted that this may not matter for most cases. Most of the Trump injunctions are under the administrative procedures act, which allows a court to set aside an agency action. So the appeals of those injunctions by Trump administration deal with the merits of the action, not whether the court has the power to enter the order. More from margot Cleveland in the federalist: link here
nortex97
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AG
I agree, but think Roberts will try to water down/weaken the limits agreed to on the nationwide injunctions. Some info here. Definitely a big enough deal for its own thread, thx.

This is one with the solicitor general himself arguing at SCOTUS, and I expect it will be a theatrical **** show of blathering from the leftist female justices especially. Should be entertaining audio.

ETA, Trump of course has thoughts on this one:
Get Off My Lawn
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Great OP - will be checking in as able.

Fingers crossed for curtailment of lower court overreach. Something like: lower courts nation wide injunctions are sunset after 30 days and anything longer needs to come from the USSC.
Im Gipper
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Get Off My Lawn said:

Great OP - will be checking in as able.

Fingers crossed for curtailment of lower court overreach. Something like: lower courts nation wide injunctions are sunset after 30 days and anything longer needs to come from the USSC.


You can cross your fingers, but I wouldn't hold your breath! That kind of ruling would require them to ignore the Rules of Civil Procedure and just make up new law.

I don't think you're going to find five justices on this court willing to do that! lol.


(Of course, they could always write new rules later on and get Congress to codify them.)



We will definitely get an opinion from Justice Thomas, as I believe he has been waiting for eight years on this issue.

I'm Gipper
CDUB98
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AG
An answer to this has been sorely needed for many years.
Tramp96
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After the last couple of months, I'm not optimistic the SCOTUS will do the right thing on this.

I hope they prove me wrong.
BusterAg
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Thanks BMX.
It takes a special kind of brainwashed useful idiot to politically defend government fraud, waste, and abuse.
fc2112
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So NPR (surprise) spun this as Trump trying to get it stopped on a technicality since the law was so clear on birth right citizenship."

Isn't this just a hearing about the nationwide stay and the birthright citizenship case will eventually come to SCOTUS to challenge U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark?
doubledog
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Childern born here can stay. Illegal immigrant parents have to go home.
All medical bills must be paid by the parents.

A good parent would take the child back home with them.
Im Gipper
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fc2112 said:



Isn't this just a hearing about the nationwide stay and the birthright citizenship case will eventually come to SCOTUS to challenge U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark?


Whatever you do, do not read the the OP!!


I'm Gipper
HTownAg98
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doubledog said:

Childern born here can stay. Illegal immigrant parents have to go home.
All medical bills must be paid by the parents.

A good parent would take the child back home with them.

That's great that you feel that way, but that's not the question the court is being asked to address at this time.
Get Off My Lawn
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Im Gipper said:

fc2112 said:



Isn't this just a hearing about the nationwide stay and the birthright citizenship case will eventually come to SCOTUS to challenge U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark?


Whatever you do, do not read the the OP!!


Would this be Rule #2 of TexAgs? "Never read more than 40% of a thread before commenting" or some equivalent?
Get Off My Lawn
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Yeah - I get that it'd be fabricating from the bench, which is why I said "like" as I know my legal knowledge is limited. But it seems like they could carve out some sort of middle ground with legalese on the premise that stays extending beyond a court's jurisdiction are inherently temporary and need to be sent up the food chain in a timely manner for permanence.
samurai_science
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Get Off My Lawn said:

Im Gipper said:

fc2112 said:



Isn't this just a hearing about the nationwide stay and the birthright citizenship case will eventually come to SCOTUS to challenge U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark?


Whatever you do, do not read the the OP!!


Would this be Rule #2 of TexAgs? "Never read more than 40% of a thread before commenting" or some equivalent?
40% is too high
BlackGold
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AG
doubledog said:

Childern born here can stay. Illegal immigrant parents have to go home.
All medical bills must be paid by the parents.

A good parent would take the child back home with them.
Why do they get to stay here though? I had a sister born in a foreign Asian country that we were not citizens of and they made my parents sign waivers, literally immediately after my mom gave birth, saying my sister was not a citizen of the country. We should be doing the same thing. You'll keep your country for longer doing this.
BMX Bandit
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Here we go.

Sauer up first for Trump.

40 nationwide injunctions since January have issued, this problem has spanned last 5 administrations. time to stop it.

he's essentially quoting Thomas and Gorscuh previous opinions on this.

Thomas: discuss the origin of the universal injunctions, specifically the bill of peace

Sauer: "bill of peace" is like a modern class action case.

Sotomayor: here there is a discrete group "people born in the US" that is similar to what happened in the bill of peace. its an identifiable group. Your theory is that courts are prohibited from universal injunctions?

Sauer: Yes.

Sotomayor: Does that mean SCOTUS cannot enforce a nationwide injunction? Everyone would have to file their own action or class action?

Sauer: Yes

Sotomayor: that makes no sense with regard to your bill of peace argument.

(have to admit, I know nothing about bill of peace)
BMX Bandit
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Sotomayor: allegation is president is violating 4 supreme court holdings. You claim is not court, including this one, can stop a president from doing that?

Sauer: no, only

Roberts: yo, wise latina. stop interrupting.

Sauer: the courts can certify a class action and give those parties relief.

Sotomayor: so if new president send out military to seize guns, we have to wait for every plaintiff to sue?

Sauer: you can do emergency class action


Sauer is winning this battle, but Sotomayor has him on the war probably. All these judges will just immediately certify classes.
nortex97
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AG
As expected, we have KBJ winning the war of 'most words spoken' by a wide margin, replete with hypotheticals that are absurd and babbling nonsense, but Sauer ultimately winning it seams with others so far but for perhaps Sotomayor.
BMX Bandit
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Brown: hypo: unlawful release of toxins by a plant. a plaintiff sues seeking to stop that release. you are saying the judgment has to be narrow and only be structured to that plaintiff, cannot just say "plant can no longer release toxins"

Sauer: yes, but, er, um.


I think he blew that answer. Barret bailed him out. It was a terrible hypo and he had a great chance to slam her, but didn't

BQ78
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AG
Kagan sounds like she will actually follow the law versus following party lines.

Sounds like more winning for Trump… I'm so tired.
BMX Bandit
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Gorsuch: in this particular case, there is a problem for the federal government with a patchwork decision right?

Sauer: yes, but thats our problem.

Gorsuch: class certification takes time, there are hurdles involved. If there is an immediate injury, how do you get around that?

Sauer: in some rare cases, you can do emergency class. not necessary here.


Gorsuch is probably the best at giving softballs to put holes in the other sides argument.
AggieT
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AG
Where are y'all watching this?
BMX Bandit
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Kagan: assume you are wrong on the merits of the EO. Does every person have to bring their own lawsuit? How do we get to there being 1 rule of citizenship? (if there can't be a permanent injunction applying universally)

Sauer: a class action maybe, but we dispute they can even certify a class.

Kagan: there are clearly abuses of nationwide injunctions, but how do we get to the final ruling that affects all?

Sauer: you would need every circuit or this court to rule on it.

Barrett: is your answer really "there is no way to do this quickly? you said a class won't work."


Sauer is spinning right now.
nortex97
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AG
Conceding (after Gorsuch question) emergency class actions are sometimes appropriate is surprising in this contexts, absent any other qualifiers. Why?

Then we get Kagan to give him a hypothetical as to him being dead wrong; does every single person affected by the EO have to bring their own suit? Answer: rule 23 provides equitable tools appropriate to rigorous criteria, but she's unhappy because she doesn't like it. She says EO is illegal, and his response is equitable factors weigh that this exceeds…she interrupts and complains that if EO is illegal how does one get to that answer on one timeframe without a nationwide injunction.

He answers (correctly) that the answer is split decisions and then ACB steps in incredulously to complain about class/'are you really going to answer with that?' She wants a faster answer on nationwide injunction.

ACB, Sotomayor, and KBJ are hard against anything supporting this limitation on nationwide injunctions from district courts, period.
fc2112
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John Sauer is doing a great job.
nortex97
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AggieT said:

Where are y'all watching this?
https://www.youtube.com/live/qVDP_z0vzOI
TRM
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AG
You can listen here:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/live.aspx
BMX Bandit
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Roberts: It may not take 3-4 years. We did TikTok in a month. You can get conflicting rulings rather quicky and this Court can issue a decision binding all. Any reason that can't happen here?

Sauer: nope.


Roberts bailed out Sauer
BMX Bandit
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Sotomayor: thousands will be born without citizenship papers if we don't act! won't somebody think of the children?!?!?

should we grant cert. on the issue now before judgment in the lower court?

Sauer: yes, the court could grant cert before judgment. no one has asked for it here.



FYI, its allowed "only upon a showing that the case is of such imperative public importance as to justify deviation from normal appellate practice and to require immediate determination in this Court"
nortex97
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AG
Pretty telling that the leftist go-to here (best commie justice is clearly Kagan) is, in reduced form, an argument that a Democrat will in the future order complete confiscation of all guns, without nationwide injunction tool at District court level.

The communists are admirably united in their abject refusal to recognize risk of extraordinary increase of nationwide injunctions against Trump over the past 90 days. Impressive, really. Their retort amounts to 'well, our team will do something your side really hates and you won't be able to stop us.' It's entirely immature, legally speaking.
BMX Bandit
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Gorsuch: Kagan asked my questions better than I could. How do we reach the merits quickly?

Sauer: allow the lower courts to rule, etc. Then we will seek cert if we lose.

Kavanaugh: if you win here, there will be class actions filed all over (probably already being prepared). how would you respond to a state-wide class?

Sauer: we haven't really briefed that.

Kavanaugh: you keep saying class actions are the cure, so lets here the arguments.

Sauer: goes through all the class certification factors.

BenFiasco14
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BMX Bandit said:

Sotomayor: thousands will be born without citizenship papers if we don't act! won't somebody think of the children?!?!?

should we grant cert. on the issue now before judgment in the lower court?

Sauer: yes, the court could grant cert before judgment. no one has asked for it here.



FYI, its allowed "only upon a showing that the case is of such imperative public importance as to justify deviation from normal appellate practice and to require immediate determination in this Court"


Wise Latina out here simping for illegals. In a functional society she would've been thrown out years ago. Just unbelievable we have to listen to this cow lecture us.
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
nortex97
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AG
Hoo boy. Here comes KBJ. She doesn't understand where 'this idea of a universal injunction' comes from. And…here we go.
BMX Bandit
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Sauer is finished. at least 4 against Trump based on the oral arguments so far (but oral arguments can be deceiving)

Feigenbaum up next (for the states)

citizenship varying state by state is not workable for federal government or states, so needs to be one ruling for all.

other cases with improper injunctions are not relevant to whether one is warranted in this case.


BMX Bandit
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Thomas: whats the history on these?

Feigenbaum: gives history. they should be narrow when issued.

Roberts: when should they be available?

Feigenbaum: (1) no workable way to give remedy any other way, (2) when congress allows it (3) alternative means for non-party relief not available. No 1 is what fits here.

Roberts: but you could benefit from this court with a quick resolution that avoids all that.

Feigenbaum: I'd welcome a quick merits hearing in this court.

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