If they think they can do better than having the U.S. as an ally then more power to them.

If that happens though, the gloves come off, and we leverage our economy to marginalize them further instead of putting up with their BS. I think I just read that their economies all fall below each of our states individually, except for maybe Germany which would be at 50.

If they keep trying to tax our companies as if they're local to their country then things will come to a head sooner rather than later. We use them to help us project power, and if they're not going to let us use their bases and airspace then it becomes an easy decision.

96AgGrad said:

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If they think they can do better than having the U.S. as an ally then more power to them.

If that happens though, the gloves come off, and we leverage our economy to marginalize them further instead of putting up with their BS. I think I just read that their economies all fall below each of our states individually, except for maybe Germany which would be at 50.

If they keep trying to tax our companies as if they're local to their country then things will come to a head sooner rather than later. We use them to help us project power, and if they're not going to let us use their bases and airspace then it becomes an easy decision.

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You are talking about GDP per Capita not total GDP. As far as total GDP goes CA is about equal to or slightly above Germany's, Texas's is larger than Italy and Florida's beats Spain.

I dont think I agree, the UK at least has always been a strong ally

whytho987654 said:

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I dont think I agree, the UK at least has always been a strong ally

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Well, up until this year.

They can think all the bull**** they want about us but they're quickly being turned into a muslim continent. So enjoy your new culture boys and girls of Europe. It was good knowing ya...

Thanks for the clarification

Sounds like something AI wrote.

96AgGrad said:

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Thanks for the clarification

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I didn't mean to leave that I disagreed with your point, because I do. We have several states with a larger economy than Russia as well. I think Europeans collectively for the most part think as a group because in reality they are similar to large states in the US. Every European country could fit in the footprint of Texas and right next door there was the USSR which at one time spanned 11 time zones, so all staying together in a somewhat cohesive group was a safety measure. In today's world where they've seen Russia struggle with a country that was formerly under their control, they probably feel more comfortable stretching their tiny bird wings.

After 9/11, several European countries contributed soldiers to help win the war or terror.

We are viewed as the aggressor by many and no one likes bullies.

True but that all changed with Stammer and Trump in charge.

theJonatron said:

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After 9/11, several European countries contributed soldiers to help win the war or terror.

We are viewed as the aggressor by many and no one likes bullies.

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The United States truly is unique among countries of the world.

I know people like to hate on Peter Zeihan but the book he published a few years ago called "The End of the World is Just the Beginning" called a lot of this.

It's about the global shift toward ending post World War II norms of economic trade and the end of globalization as we knew it from the 80s-2020s.

They are not now. The UK is a fallen state.

What year was that? They're doing nothing for us. They are a liability now.

Cut them off.

Discussions about this are always at such a low level.

America's global power has largely been aided and amplified by our alliance network.

Our influence over European security arrangement has come with immeasurable benefits to the economy of our country.

NATO counties answered our call to Article 5 after September 11th.

We had a relationship that allowed European countries to subsidize American defense contractors next generation technology for our military.

European countries projected America's global order into Europe while Japan and South Korea projected it East.

But this can only function if we are viewed as an ally. We can't be a different version of Russia or China to them. Honestly, how do we expect them to support us as we blatantly and arrogantly undermine their interests. It's also important to realize that NATO was never designed to include the Middle East or the Far East. We deliberately excluded things outside the North Atlantic so that we wouldn't need to defend France's colonies, get involved in the Falkland Islands, we didn't support the UK during the Suez Crisis, or battle it out with France in Algeria. Also, NATO has always been structured as a defensive alliance that increases America's global reach and capabilities by providing us overlapping access for our military with defensive needs in Europe.

We did not include NATO in our Iran operation. We made a mess and then demanded they get involved. That's not how any of you would behave with your friends or family or even business partners. This administration, acts like a toddler and as a result we get destructive behavior.

Gordo14 said:

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But this can only function if we are viewed as an ally. We can't be a different version of Russia or China to them. Honestly, how do we expect them to support us as we blatantly and arrogantly undermine their interests. It's also important to realize that NATO was never designed to include the Middle East or the Far East. We deliberately excluded things outside the North Atlantic so that we wouldn't need to defend France's colonies, get involved in the Falkland Islands, we didn't support the UK during the Suez Crisis, or battle it out with France in Algeria. Also, NATO has always been structured as a defensive alliance that increases America's global reach and capabilities by providing us overlapping access for our military with defensive needs in Europe.

We did not include NATO in our Iran operation. We made a mess and then demanded they get involved. That's not how any of you would behave with your friends or family or even business partners. This administration, acts like a toddler and as a result we get destructive behavior.

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Why does it have to be TRANSatlantic???

The last transatlantic partnership brought slaves from Africa, across the Atlantic, to grow sugar, which was shipped across the Atlantic to Britain, where they were traded for guns (pots pans etc), which was shipped to Africa along the Atlantic coast, where these items were traded to native Africans for slaves, who were sent across the Atlantic and the cycle continued.

Sorry for the run-on sentence, but it was worth it. ; )

techno-ag said:

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theJonatron said:

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After 9/11, several European countries contributed soldiers to help win the war or terror.

We are viewed as the aggressor by many and no one likes bullies.

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The United States truly is unique among countries of the world.

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whytho987654 said:

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I dont think I agree, the UK at least has always been a strong ally

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How so? I think they have acted as a client state would going to maintain close remained with the world super power.

Gordo14 said:

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Discussions about this are always at such a low level.

America's global power has largely been aided and amplified by our alliance network.

Our influence over European security arrangement has come with immeasurable benefits to the economy of our country.

NATO counties answered our call to Article 5 after September 11th.

We had a relationship that allowed European countries to subsidize American defense contractors next generation technology for our military.

European countries projected America's global order into Europe while Japan and South Korea projected it East.

But this can only function if we are viewed as an ally. We can't be a different version of Russia or China to them. Honestly, how do we expect them to support us as we blatantly and arrogantly undermine their interests. It's also important to realize that NATO was never designed to include the Middle East or the Far East. We deliberately excluded things outside the North Atlantic so that we wouldn't need to defend France's colonies, get involved in the Falkland Islands, we didn't support the UK during the Suez Crisis, or battle it out with France in Algeria. Also, NATO has always been structured as a defensive alliance that increases America's global reach and capabilities by providing us overlapping access for our military with defensive needs in Europe.

We did not include NATO in our Iran operation. We made a mess and then demanded they get involved. That's not how any of you would behave with your friends or family or even business partners. This administration, acts like a toddler and as a result we get destructive behavior.

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Feels like a pretty low level take.

I'm not sure that had much to do with my OP.

The EU is the largest producer and exporter of toxic liberalism in the history of Earth. The US should not lift a finger to help them when they decide to destroy their continent for the uptenth time. Let the liberalism eradicate itself then swoop in and take what we want after the smoke clears.

Starmer, Macron and the Italian women's decisions are pandering to their Muslim populations as they count on America to stop Iran from getting nukes and cutting off the Strait of Hormuz. As Muslims increase in numbers, England, France and Italy's objectives and values will no longer align at all with the USA. These and other European countries will be taken over by Muslims and a caliphate will occur unless the English, French and Italians grow some balls and fight for their countries and their way of life.

theJonatron said:

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After 9/11, several European countries contributed soldiers to help win the war or terror.

We are viewed as the aggressor by many and no one likes bullies.

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Yeah...

Iran has been a peaceful country that hasn't been an aggressor at all...

The EU is nothing more than an old stale rotting baguette…. They ruined all their countries with over regulations and stupid green laws.. they were Chined years ago… they are losing industry by the day. They probably can't afford their own military programs because they have lost too much industry to support those programs .. I wish stupid American city folk would quit buying their over priced cars…. Your supporting idiots folks

The OP is looking at the dog from the wrong end.

To say, "Is Italy a reliable ally?" is to misapprehend the game that America is playing.

A better analysis starts with:

1.) What is our primary strategic objective?
2.) Who is our primary adversary?
3.) What other states have interests that will be abetted by the achievement of our objectives or the frustration of our adversary?

In the Cold War, our 1) objective was to make sure that we fought the 2) Soviets on foreign soil, so that we could choose to engage the Soviets in peripheral theaters of conflict, where our relative naval superiority kept the risks low.

Our allies in 3) NATO had a strong interest in making sure that the battle line was drawn at their Eastern borders.

I'm not going to say that the alliance was perfect or happy, but the alliance aligned the interests of the United States with the interests of a good many other countries, and we contained the Soviets without bloodshed. We did not care that the Italians were socialists, so long as the 6th Fleet had a parking space at Naples.

It's important to remember that the Chi-coms were (sometimes) a "good" ally in containing the Soviets, just like the Soviets had (sometimes) been a "good" ally in containing the Nazis and Imperial Japan.

I submit to you that our discomfort with the quality of our alliances in Europe is largely driven by a lack of mental clarity with regard to our strategic objectives and our primary adversary.

For me, I'm still a child of the Cold War. I still hate the Russians. Jesus smiles every time that the treads of a Leopard tank crush out the intestines of some Russian *******.

In perfect honesty, when the Nazis killed 27M Russians, I'm not sure which side was really doing more to advance America's strategic interests.

Oh, and just so that you don't think that I am motivated by a blind and intransigent hatred of the Russians, I want to make one thing perfectly clear. I may be arguing, 2 years from now, that we need to cuddle up with Ivan in order to get some help on sending Chi-Coms to the bottom of the Pacific.

In that moment, I will be arguing that our primary strategic objective is containment of China, and the Russians are a good ally, because they have a long border with China, and the Russians are in a good position to kill large numbers of Chi-Coms, so that fewer Chi-Coms are available to fight against the United States on the other side of the playing field.

CrackerJackAg said:

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The Western European powers have never truly been our allies; they are rivals who partnered with the U.S. only out of necessity.

Since the World Wars, these nations have essentially existed as client states, tethered to the U.S. for security and economic stability. It was only a matter of time before they felt the agencyor the desperationto step out from that shadow.

Suffering from a vassal complex, most of these countries view themselves as culturally and historically superior to the United States. They never truly appreciated American intervention; they simply begrudgingly accepted it. We are seeing the inevitable return to a competitive reality where their interests no longer align with ours.

Their desire for "Strategic Autonomy" isessentially the polite way of saying they want to be a rival power center.

While they talk about "shared values," they often engage in protectionist trade practices and independent deals with U.S. adversaries (Energy deals, Tech regulations, Targeting American Champions or negotiating with Iran) that specifically target American companies and our military interests

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My favorite part of their reasoning is how we should be thanking them for letting us keep thousands of soldiers in their countries spending trillions of dollars to protect them as if it is some great sacrifice for them. Now they are acting like they could just become a giant military power overnight and rival us and think the long distant past is relevant in that argument. The arrogance of especially Left wing Euros is next level.