What are your thoughts on cull bucks? many years ago, I was told all spikes should go, awkward looking racks should go, super old bucks should go, etc. I think the spike theory has long been disproven, or so I have read over the years. How do you determine what is truly a cull buck?

Depends on the area, at our place in west tx, low fence, I like to cull anything over 3.5 that has unfavorable horn characteristics such as short G1s, short tines, crab claws, and not very much mass. Spikes are usually pretty young and I'm under the impression that a .5 or 1.5 yr old isn't going to even get a doe to breed with, so just let him go and see how he turns out.

I like how you said that better than what I typed. When I referred to culls I was generally just referring to the bucks we decide to shoot for meat. They are not really culls. But we rarely if ever shoot the biggest rack we see.

But none of those decisions really change the herd on low fence smaller properties. That's very true.

I think the bigger thing, the more important thing, is trying to manage buck/doe ratios. That is more controllable. Doe just don't move really far and too many cause all kinds of issues. There have been years in the past where all we shot were doe. But that was a long time ago

I don't call them culls because they annoy me. And kids and guests are exactly what I would use them for. I just don't want to over cull. I have bucks on camera this year from 180"+ to 8". So it's a big range. I want to ensure I have more 180's than 8's. And maybe that isn't possible, maybe it is just food and location. I just want to do my part to keep the herd healthy. Even if it is pissing in the wind due to outside of my control factors. I still like to try.

Wise words from Grem. If on high fence with year round feeding and high birth rates spikes need to go because statistically they will not score as much as a buck with more points at an equal age as said spike. You have to start thinking in cattle terms…can my acreage support this many animals. If you have established a program and are regularly seeing 6,8,10 pointers in very young deer then all spikes are fair game for anyone that is willing to shoot them with this caveat…
(A SPIKE AND A NUBBIN BUCK ARE NOT THE SAME THING)
If on low fence, culling needs to be based almost exclusively on your specified age. (3.5 minimum for really small bucks). On high or low fence places do not forget to harvest does at an equal as possible rate to bucks.

Majority high-fenced - maybe 7 of ten miles. Supplemental feed. Have about 35 doe and 25 bucks to shoot this year.

We carry high deer count - our goal is to let trophy deer grow to 6.5 or older and go heavy on non-trophies at 4.5. like to see a buck have antlers that are good on 3 of the following - mass, beam length, tine length and number of points at 4.5.

We bring guests out that are happy to shoot a 4.5 year old 125" 8 pointer. However - lots of deer to shoot so there's still a bit of "culling" that gets done.

I agree with not shooting until 3. Young bucks don't get many opportunities to breed so not affecting genetics much until they big enough to beat out bigger bucks. I see fawns born in May and others born in August. That's a huge difference in what first set of antlers may develop into.
Only thing really proven about antler management is that there's not much concrete to go by in open range.

100% been disproven.

Na.

But I don't really care. I think manipulating deer herds for bigger antlers is stupids anyways. Shoot whatever you want. It really doesn't matter.

So…

There was this old biologist in Cotulla way back we were a Cazadores headquarters visiting one day and he told me the 5 ingredient for great antlers. They are:
Genetics
Nutrition
Age
Age
Age

agsalaska said:

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But I don't really care.

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Don't lie.

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I think manipulating deer herds for bigger antlers is stupids anyways.

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Maybe. Especially since does are at least half the equation plus care for the fawns. And there's no way to figure that side out without it becoming a livestock farm.

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Shoot whatever you want. It really doesn't matter.

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Going to disagree there. It can matter if managed for the right reasons. Culling doesn't help because of ensuring pretty genetics. It helps by reducing carrying capacity on the available nutrition and bettering the deer herd as a whole. Thus working to get to the right total numbers and ratios along with ensuring older, healthier deer definitely matters. The problem is to many ignorant hunters think the beauty pageant is somehow the means and the result.

It's not. Better antlers scores are a byproduct of a healthy ecosystem. If people balanced thinning the herd more with improving the deer environment, it would do wonders. Most band aid with culling and protein.

AgLA06 said:

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agsalaska said:

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But I don't really care.

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Don't lie.

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I think manipulating deer herds for bigger antlers is stupids anyways.

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Maybe. Especially since does are at least half the equation plus care for the fawns. And there's no way to figure that side out without it becoming a livestock farm.

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Shoot whatever you want. It really doesn't matter.

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Going to disagree there. It can matter if managed for the right reasons. Culling doesn't help because of ensuring pretty genetics. It helps by reducing carrying capacity on the available nutrition and bettering the deer herd as a whole. Thus working to get to the right total numbers and ratios along with ensuring older, healthier deer definitely matters. The problem is to many ignorant hunters think the beauty pageant is somehow the means and the result.

It's not. Better antlers scores are a byproduct of a healthy ecosystem. If people balanced thinning the herd more with improving the deer environment, it would do wonders. Most band aid with culling and protein.

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Yea I agree with all of that. I was being a little bit sarcastic with my .it doesn't matter' statement. My point is that people WAY overthink things and think they have a lot more control than they really do. There are 6 million deer in Texas. Whether or not you shoot that buck or let him walk hoping to see him next year dont mean **** in the grand scheme of things.

I think I said in an earlier post that the most important thing that you can do is control numbers and buck doe ratios. And habitat. But once you have that under control it doesn't matter near as much as people think what you shoot. Whether a deer is 3.5 or 4.5. Or god forbid a spike. I see people come up with the dumbest rules and silliest ideas about what you can and can't shoot and it drives people away from hunting. Get your balance right and try to shoot older deer when you can and you will be fine.


And i choked on my drink when I read you 'don't lie'. That was funny as hell.

I have become a complete whitetail nerd since I bought a ranch and began instituting a comprehensive habitat and harvest management plan. What I have learned has completely changed the way I think about harvest management from the ground up. First and foremost, shooting yearling spikes is not a great idea. A late born buck fawn or a bad habitat year can absolutely result in spikes and there is no discernible correlation with whether that deer will develop into a larger, branch antlered buck later in life with proper nutrition and age. The question is what you are managing for and the best way to determine that is to give bucks age - even young spikes. Yes, I think you can assume a 2.5 YO buck with a spike antler on one side or the other will always be a turd. Second, there is no definition of a cull other than what you choose to call a particular deer or whatever you call your own management plan. "Cull" is often a justification to shoot a deer because you want to shoot a deer. Because the doe carries half the genetic signature, there is no proof a 3 YO 105 inch 8 won't breed a Booner. In fact, there was a comprehensive culling study carried out by the Texas Deer Association and TPWD over a number of years and the buck that bred the most "trophy class" bucks over the course of his life, confirmed through tagging, was a 126 inch 9 the year he was killed at 7. There is a video on YouTube you can find by simply searching "cull bucks" that covers this in detail. Point being, there is still a lot of mystery surrounding the subject and most opinions (including my own) are simply best guesses. We settled on a culling philosophy that is based on age. If a deer is still small at 3.5, he may very well get culled to remove him from our already outrageously expensive feed bill. However, we will often allow deer to reach 4.5 before making that decision. The gist I have gotten from the research I have done and from speaking with multiple managers and their biologists is that you cannot cull yourself to a herd full of massive deer. There will always be bucks that are Michael Jordan and more that will be Johnny Average. Age and nutrition are always going to be better ingredients to produce the deer you want to shoot. Good news? You can do whatever you want to with whatever property you hunt and manage.

Still eating feed in mid December? Should be tamales by now

Definitely a shooter.

TDA and TPWD collaborated? Very interesting, gonna try to track down this study.

DVM97 said:

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Cull

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That is certainly a meaty cull. With red meat prices these days, he might fetch a few hundred bucks at the local sell barn

SanAntoneAg said:

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TDA and TPWD collaborated? Very interesting, gonna try to track down this study.

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I am pretty sure you can search "QDM works, culling doesn't" and add Comanche Ranch to your search. And it was actually National Deer Association. Dr. Deyoung (sp?) ran the study

Ah yes, NDA makes much more sense.

I didn't say never. I said rarely, which unless you just don't have bigger mature bucks is accurate. There are no givens in this discussion.

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I didn't say never. I said rarely, which unless you just don't have bigger mature bucks is accurate. There are no givens in this discussion.

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Man, I'm wrong all the time as my wife can attest. But you have to prove it to me. "Rarely" is pretty vague, and studies I've read show younger bucks having success. Enough to make any sort of culling for genetics impossible. (to go along with not being able to manage antler genetics carried by does)

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Auburn's is not the only study to find this. Anna Bess Sorin earned her Ph.D. from the University of Michigan studying deer in Michigan's 1,300-acre enclosed George Reserve, which is three times the size of the Auburn facility. Anna Bess found three out of 16 yearling bucks and two out of four 2-year-olds produced fawns even when 41% of bucks in the population were 3 or older. Also, 12 out of 14 bucks age 3 or older were successful. Again, widespread success even in a developed buck age structure.

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Completely agree with your other post about Age & Nutrition. THAT can be managed. Cull for numbers and buck/doe ratio. Genetics will not be managed to any impact.

Apache said:

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Young bucks don't get many opportunities to breed so not affecting genetics much until they big enough to beat out bigger bucks.

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Seriously? "It ain't the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog". Young bucks breed does ALL THE TIME. Does in heat are complete sl*ts, they ain't saving themselves for marriage!

If a 2.5 year old buck is in the right place at the right time (and those young bucks can travel!!) ... well let's just say it's Denim & Diamonds at 2AM on nickel drink night.

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Those were good times!!!!

ShouldastayedataTm said:

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Wish I had own that when I met my first two wives, might have saved me some retirement.

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Leave the sausage does for someone else.

So at 4.5 yr bucks are into the M-I-L-F-S but as they get older they start going the Leonardo Dicaprio route eh

The argument for 4.5 is that their bones have stopped growing and they devote more energy to antler production than they have so far. It usually is the biggest jump in antler size all else staying the same.

I have read the "culling" study and while I get that it is scientific - it flies in the face of logic. I haven't seen a 115" 6 point "breeder buck". There are a LOT of animals that are bred for inherent characteristics. I do believe some bucks don't pass on antler genetics strongly (probably comes from the doe) and others do in a great way. Just like some shorter guys have taller children.

In a nutshell - we do what we can and try to keep it simple and let deer get old. Mitch / Jerry wouldn't approve.

Is it possible to legally take this buck on a non-MLD place since the inside spread is less than 13"?