I was listening to Dan Carlin's podcast about the Khan's, and I didn't realize that the Mongols were able to kick the Europeans butt's so thoroughly. I thought their interaction was minimal. Carlin presented it like the Mongol's were used to fighting in "the big leagues" (China), while Europeans were the minor leagues. That is the first I've heard of China being considered the military big leagues. Rome was in Europe a thousand years prior and I'd consider them "big league". Did Europe sorta forget about military strategy in the interim? I'm not aware of societies in China being anything special other than the Mongols. Is that ignorant American schooling? Or is Carlin exaggerating a bit?

I'd like to listen to those again. Anyone know where those podcasts can be found without paying?

I have some interest in and am decently well read in medieval European and Indian history. If someone with greater knowledge tells me I'm wrong, I will be happy to stand corrected.

I don't know if I agree with China being the "big leagues". The Mongols were just good at playing "away games" at a time when no one was. I don't agree with the characterization of Europe as a bad in the military. If it was, (non-Mongol) Muslims would've succeeded in conquering Vienna and pushed into southern France. Instead they got repelled out of Spain and stopped in Anatolia. Christendom even won the first crusade, though you could argue that was complete luck (or Yaweh's intervention!?!).

What I would agree with is that until the Renaissance, Europeans were on par with the rest of the world in terms of military prowess. The Mongols alone were uniquely better.

I would posit the Battle of Lepento in 1571 as the specific moment when Europeans achieved military hegemony over the rest of the world. I can't think of single instance of a fully provisioned European military losing a battle after that until the Russo-Japanese War in 1904. A western power has never lost one.

Again if I'm dead wrong or missed something, happy to change my mind and/or learn something.

For those that like videos and want to know about the mongols.

Mule_lx said:

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I'd like to listen to those again. Anyone know where those podcasts can be found without paying?

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This is where I found it:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSlg5Dy-fhpD2i0py9ORIY-tNNDqqDrT9

I am no historian... and the little I know about the Mongols I got from this podcast and a little wikipedia research...

My thoughts were this: Since the Mongols were nomadic, they got really good at living and fighting without a supply train. That enabled them to always be able to get the "mostest fastest" to battle. As we know now, that is a huge advantage. Once the Mongols fought China and learned how to use siege weapons, that made them no match for slow armies that depended on forts and castles. Now they could get the mostest wherever they wanted the fastest and then siege their asses too. So it wasn't really a "big leagues" sort of thing, but fighting the Chinese taught them the last piece of the puzzle.

At least that's my layman's thoughts on the subject.

BQ78 said:

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Perhaps by big league he is talking about being able to field larger armies and support them logistically, something the Europeans weren't really capable of until the Napoleonic Wars.

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I think this is close if not exactly what he was talking about. At that time size meant a lot and tactics were mostly about picking the ground and having more troops than that other guys.

"they got really good at living and fighting without a supply train"

Prime Foragers

Their expansion was limited to areas with forage for their horses. That is what kept them out of Western Europe.

I do know that if you in a pitched battle with Mongols and they appear to flee in panic, don't attempt to follow them.

I am currenly watching Marco Polo on Netflix. it is very much like a Mongolian version of "Vikings".

"Their expansion was limited to areas with forage for their horses"

All the way to Europe

I recommend "The Silk Roads" by Francopan, which devotes considerable time to the influence of the Mongol Empire.

You should remember that the Song Dynasty military was not particularly strong compared to the other main Dynasties like Qin, Han, Tang, Qing, etc. They also did not control the critical Hexi corridor. It's especially noted since there's a relative lack of power compared to the imperial government - as compared to the brutal efficiency (and genocidal qualities) of the Qin, or the psuedo-aristocratic military of the Tang. Note the relative lack of coups in the military of the Song, say in comparison with the Tang, or the clan strife of the Eastern Han, or the various coups in the Ming.

Excuse me. When did the Mongols rule China?