Congress wants to revoke the Medal of Honors given to soldiers for Wounded Knee

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BQ78
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12:24p, 7/21/22
AG
https://www.foxnews.com/us/lawmakers-seek-rescind-medals-honor-soldiers-carried-wounded-knee-massacre

They keep talking about this but they might do it this time. Knowing how the battle went down it seems unlikely that 20 soldiers showed the kind of heroism usually seen with the MoH. However, I do not like making soldiers (even long dead ones) pay for the "sins" of government policy. I do not know exactly what feats these soldiers performed during the battle/massacre but I object on the surface of it.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to BQ78 • 12:59p, 7/21/22
They've already revoked a number of the Civil War MoHs that were given for mass reenlistments and the like. They revoked 900 in 1916 alone. I don't see anything wrong with recognizing that a mistake had been made, especially when it's the nation's highest award for valor in combat. The citations are very vague (which isn't uncommon for the era), but given what we know about the fight, 20 legitimately earned medals seems unlikely.

For the record, these are the citations:
AUSTIN, WILLIAM G.

Rank and organization: Sergeant, Company E, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: New York, N.Y. Birth: Galveston, Tex. Date of issue: 27 June 1891. Citation: While the Indians were concealed in a ravine, assisted men on the skirmish line, directing their fire, etc., and using every effort to dislodge the enemy.

CLANCY, JOHN E.

Rank and organization: Musician, Company E, 1st U.S. Artillery. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: ------. Birth: New York, N.Y. Date of issue 23 January 1892. Citation: Twice voluntarily rescued wounded comrades under fire of the enemy.

FEASTER, MOSHEIM

Rank and organization: Private, Company E, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: Schellburg, Pa. Birth: Schellburg, Pa. Date of issue: 23 June 1891. Citation: Extraordinary gallantry.

GARLINGTON, ERNEST A.

Rank and organization: First Lieutenant, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: Athens, Ga. Born: 20 February 1853, Newberry, S.C. Date of issue: 26 September 1893. Citation: Distinguished gallantry.

GRESHAM, JOHN C.

Rank and organization: First Lieutenant, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: Lancaster Courthouse, Va. Birth: Virginia. Date of issue: 26 March 1895. Citation: Voluntarily led a party into a ravine to dislodge Sioux Indians concealed therein. He was wounded during this action.

HAMILTON, MATHEW H.

Rank and organization: Private, Company G, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: New York, N.Y. Birth: Australia. Date of issue: 25 May 1891. Citation: Bravery in action.

HARTZOG, JOSHIJA B.

Rank and organization: Private, Company E, 1st U.S. Artillery. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: ------. Birth: Paulding County, Ohio, Date of issue: 24 March 1891. Citation: Went to the rescue of the commanding officer who had fallen severely wounded, picked him up, and carried him out of range of the hostile guns.

HAWTHORNE, HARRY L.

Rank and organization: Second Lieutenant, 2d U S. Artillery. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: Kentucky. Born: 1860, Minnesota. Date of issue: 1 1 October 1892. Citation: Distinguished conduct in battle with hostile Indians .

HILLOCK, MARVIN C.

Rank and organization: Private, Company B, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: Lead City, S. Dak. Birth: Michigan. Date of issue: 16 April 1891. Citation: Distinguished bravery.

HOBDAY, GEORGE

Rank and organization: Private, Company A, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: ------. Birth: Pulaski County, 111. Date of issue: 23 June 1891. Citation: Conspicuous and gallant conduct in battle.

LOYD, GEORGE

Rank and organization: Sergeant, Company I, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: ------. Birth: Ireland. Date of issue: 16 April 1891. Citation: Bravery, especially after having been severely wounded through the lung.

MCMLLLAN, ALBERT W.

Rank and organization: Sergeant, Company E, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: Baltimore, Md. Birth: Baltimore, Md. Date of issue: 23 June 1891. Citation: While engaged with Indians concealed in a ravine, he assisted the men on the skirmish line, directed their fire, encouraged them by example, and used every effort to dislodge the enemy.

SULLIVAN, THOMAS

Rank and organization: Private, Company E, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: Newark, N.J. Birth: Ireland. Date of issue: 17 December 1891. Citation: Conspicuous bravery in action against Indians concealed in a ravine.

TOY, FREDERICK E.

Rank and organization: First Sergeant, Company C, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at:------. Birth: Buffalo, N.Y. Date of issue: 26 May 1891. Citation: Bravery.

TRAUTMAN, JACOB

Rank and organization: First Sergeant, Company I, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: ------. Birth: Germany. Date of issue: 27 March 1891. Citation: Killed a hostile Indian at close quarters, and, although entitled to retirement from service, remained to the close of the campaign.

WARD, JAMES

Rank and organization: Sergeant, Company B, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: Boston, Mass. Birth: Quincy, Mass. Date of issue: 16 April 1891. Citation: Continued to flght after being severely wounded.

WELNERT, PAUL H.

Rank and organization: Corporal, Company E, 1st U.S. Artillery. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, S. Dak., 29 December 1890. Entered service at: Baltimore, Md. Birth: Germany. Date of issue: 24 March 1891. Citation: Taking the place of his commanding of ficer who had fallen severely wounded, he gallantly served his piece, after each flre advancing it to a better position.

ZIEGNER, HERMANN

Rank and organization: Private, Company E, 7th U.S. Cavalry. Place and date: At Wounded Knee Creek, and White Clay Creek, S. Dak 29-30 December 1890. Entered service at: ------. Birth: Germany Date of issue: 23 June 1891. Citation: Conspicuous bravery
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1:18p, 7/21/22
BQ78
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 1:48p, 7/21/22
AG
Thanks for posting those, I do recall reading about Hartzog, he heroically grabbed his commander but then left the gun firing into the ravine undermanned.

Removing the honor 50 years after the fact, especially when it was not for action is understandable. This is 140 years later so I don't agree. Especially when the same folks that want to pull these awards are the same one who reinstated Mary Walker's MoH when she wasn't even in the military and did not perform her services in action either.
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In reply to BQ78 • 2:48p, 7/21/22
BQ78
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In reply to [removed post] • 3:29p, 7/21/22
AG
Never fired a shot in anger and was never in the military. By way of example James Andrews who led the Great Locomotive Chase did not get the MoH because he was a civilian but every other member of the raid got the MoH and in fact were the very first recipients.

By same people, I mean of the same political persuasion. Tell me that if she was a man, that Carter would have reinstated her MoH.
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In reply to BQ78 • 3:47p, 7/21/22
Smeghead4761
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In reply to [removed post] • 7:07p, 7/21/22
Bregxit said:
Reading through some of the old citations it seems that the first 30ish years the MoH was more of an attaboy medal than the standards we know today.

"Seized the two colors from the hands of a corporal and a lieutenant as they fell mortally wounded, and with a color in each hand advanced across the field to a point where the regiment was reformed on those colors."

"For heroic conduct with two comrades, in rescuing from drowning James Rose and John Russell, seamen of the U.S.S. Winooski, off Eastport, Maine, 10 May 1866."

I say leave it be. Let the 1916 cleanup be enough.
Prior to WWI, the MoH was the only medal for bravery - in combat and otherwise - that existed in the U.S. military. There were no lesser awards. That's why a lot of the older citations seem a bit tame by today's standards.

I will say this: all of the Civil War awards for picking up unit or national colors and advancing toward the enemy, I'm not going to argue one bit with those. That means, in a nutshell, putting down your own weapon, and picking up a big flag that screams "Look at me! Shoot here!" to the enemy, and then advancing in plain view of the enemy
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Bighunter43
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11:29a, 7/22/22
AG
I'm not usually an advocate for "re-writing" history. But in this case, I can get behind the movement to revoke the MOH recipients at Wounded Knee. First of all, before 1897 there was no "criteria" for the medal itself. Men could apply themselves and were often awarded the medal. In 1897, that changed, with the wording "incontestable proof of the most distinguished gallantry in action". While over 500 were awarded between 1890 and 1897, one can contrast that with only 95 for WW 1 and 324 in WW II...it seems Gen Nelson Miles was against it at the time, but President Harrison advocated it to avoid having his administration to blame for the "massacre"....instead blaming the Indians and portraying soldiers as heroes. One only need to read the citations posted to see how "vague" the majority of those reports for "bravery" are. It's impossible to determine, but could some of these same 20 have shot down unarmed, innocent women and children as well? That's pure speculation, but quite possible. I think, in this circumstance, it's probably the right thing to do....although I despise Elizabeth Warren and some of the Liberal Dems pushing for this, and it makes it that much harder for me to concur.....I would be ok with this.
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Belton Ag
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4:37p, 7/22/22
AG
How many of you have been to the Wounded Knee site? I went last year for the first time when we were driving south from Badlands NP. Very bleak and sad memorial site surrounded by a pretty bleak reservation.
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BQ78
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In reply to Belton Ag • 8:58p, 7/22/22
AG
Yep was there three years ago and got the same impression as you
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Belton Ag • 10:00a, 7/23/22
Belton Ag said:
How many of you have been to the Wounded Knee site? I went last year for the first time when we were driving south from Badlands NP. Very bleak and sad memorial site surrounded by a pretty bleak reservation.
Yeah, by that point the only land being offered to the Lakota was the absolute worst land that ranchers had no use for.
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Belton Ag
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 11:53a, 7/24/22
AG
Sapper Redux said:
Belton Ag said:
How many of you have been to the Wounded Knee site? I went last year for the first time when we were driving south from Badlands NP. Very bleak and sad memorial site surrounded by a pretty bleak reservation.
Yeah, by that point the only land being offered to the Lakota was the absolute worst land that ranchers had no use for.
It's very striking to anyone driving through that area just how little the land offers to its inhabitants. That a population is able to scratch an existence out of that landscape is a minor miracle in itself. The lack of natural resources that a modern society can exploit (Oil & gas, timber, etc.) to its economic advantage doomed them from the beginning.

Other than the very quick stop at Wounded Knee, we went through the Reservation without stopping. There was a checkpoint as we entered the Reservation for Covid-19. The guy manning the stop wasn't hostile to us, he asked where we'd been and where we were going and if we had symptoms. He basically said he couldn't stop us from coming in, but the impression we got was that they didn't want us spending any time there.
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aalan94
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11:12p, 7/25/22
AG
We should do this for Wilson's Veracruz invasion. More medals of honor than people killed. All to cover up the most pointless use of military force in our history.
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fasthorse05
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7:27p, 7/26/22
Deserved or undeserved, I'll never, ever, understand taking the mores and values of today, and placing them in 1950, 1850, 1750, or earlier.

It's not the height of hypocrisy, but it's up there.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to fasthorse05 • 8:28a, 7/27/22
fasthorse05 said:
Deserved or undeserved, I'll never, ever, understand taking the mores and values of today, and placing them in 1950, 1850, 1750, or earlier.

It's not the height of hypocrisy, but it's up there.


I'll never understand the assumption that one set of morals were universally accepted in 1950, 1850, 1750, or earlier.
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dead
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In reply to aalan94 • 11:14a, 7/27/22
AG
aalan94 said:
We should do this for Wilson's Veracruz invasion. More medals of honor than people killed. All to cover up the most pointless use of military force in our history.
May I introduce you to the Vietnam War?
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milner79
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In reply to Belton Ag • 9:30p, 8/4/22
Belton Ag said:
How many of you have been to the Wounded Knee site? I went last year for the first time when we were driving south from Badlands NP. Very bleak and sad memorial site surrounded by a pretty bleak reservation.

Was there in 1973 as a high school kid on family vacation. We were bound for Mt. Rushmore and I was the one who requested the side trip to Wounded Knee. A week later, while we had advanced in our travels to Montana, we heard that the church on the hill at WK had been burned by arsonists. Obviously, it was still a volatile time there ... and a white-bread family from Texas probably had no business playing tourist in the place.
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BQ78
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9:47p, 8/4/22
AG
Since we mentioned Mary Walker in this thread, I read today that Fort A.P. Hill in VA will be named for her when the great Confederate purge occurs.
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Aggie_Journalist
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11:11p, 8/4/22
AG
If I recall, the description of what happened at wounded knee goes something like this:

The Union wanted the Lakota to leave their land. An army regiment surrounded a Lakota camp to make them go. The army asked the Lakota to drop their arms, and all did except for one Lakota who was deaf and didn't understand what was going on or didn't want to disarm. When a soldier grabbed his gun, it went off, and then the army started shooting and fighting broke out. 250-300 Lakota died, including women and children. 20+ soldiers died.

It cheapens the MoH for everyone else who has it when someone who doesn't deserve it gets it. I'd support these being revoked, based on my understanding of what happened at Wounded Knee.
Thanks and gig'em
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BQ78
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In reply to Aggie_Journalist • 9:43a, 8/5/22
AG
How it started does not necessarily detract from the individual displays of heroism of the soldiers involved after the shooting started. It gets the title of massacre which implies the Indians did not or could not fight back but they did. Certainly the Indians amped themselves up for a fight with all the Ghost Shirt activity before. Both sides were on edge and itching for armed confrontation and they got it.

I'll compare this episode of white guilt to what I saw in Britain three summers ago in Plymouth. Near the Hoe is a Boer War monument on fine display. About half a click away was a Zulu War monument all boarded up and a wooden wall at least 16 feet high constructed around it. They both should equally be displays of British colonialism and mistreatment of another group. But today they are ashamed of their mistreatment of POC, not the other white people. They proudly display the names of those killed fighting the Boers but hide the names of those killed fighting Zulus. All those redcoats died for their queen and should be remembered not tossed away becasue the politicians demanded their death in a wrong cause.
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CanyonAg77
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11:11a, 8/6/22
AG
This feels like they are stripping the Medals from soldiers, who may be worthy of them, given the standards for the Medal at that time, and not "punishing" the ones in charge.

But the reason for taking the Medals, is because it was a huge government screwup. Federal policies sucked, the guys carrying out the policy didn't have a lot of sayin the matter. So instead of shaming the leaders of the time, they shame the guys on the ground.

I suspect the Presidents, governors, generals, and congressmen of the day will still have towns and mountains and buildings named after them.
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Bighunter43
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In reply to BQ78 • 2:51p, 8/7/22
AG
BQ78 said:
How it started does not necessarily detract from the individual displays of heroism of the soldiers involved after the shooting started. It gets the title of massacre which implies the Indians did not or could not fight back but they did. Certainly the Indians amped themselves up for a fight with all the Ghost Shirt activity before. Both sides were on edge and itching for armed confrontation and they got it.

I'll compare this episode of white guilt to what I saw in Britain three summers ago in Plymouth. Near the Hoe is a Boer War monument on fine display. About half a click away was a Zulu War monument all boarded up and a wooden wall at least 16 feet high constructed around it. They both should equally be displays of British colonialism and mistreatment of another group. But today they are ashamed of their mistreatment of POC, not the other white people. They proudly display the names of those killed fighting the Boers but hide the names of those killed fighting Zulus. All those redcoats died for their queen and should be remembered not tossed away becasue the politicians demanded their death in a wrong cause.

I would certainly agree that once the fighting started, there were probably individual acts of "heroism". But, I am of the belief that when you have a large number of non-combatants in the form of unarmed women and children, many of whom were in flight from the conflict, gunned down then that seems the very definition of a "massacre". I find several eyewitness accounts interesting:

Dewey Beard Lakota "…I was badly wounded and pretty weak too. While I was lying on my back, I looked down the ravine and saw a lot of women coming up and crying. When I saw these women, girls and little girls and boys coming up, I saw soldiers on both sides of the ravine shoot at them until they had killed every one of them… Going a little further, (I ) came upon my mother who was moving slowly, being very badly wounded… When (I) caught up to her, she said, 'My son, pass by me; I am going to fall down now.' As she went up, soldiers on both sides of the ravine shot at her and killed her… (I) heard the Hotchkiss or Gatling guns shooting at them along the bank. Now there went up from these dying people a medley of death songs that would make the hardest heart weep. Each one sings a different death song if he chooses. The death song is expressive of their wish to die. It is also a requiem for the dead. It expresses that the singer is anxious to die too…."

American Horse Lakota "The women as they were fleeing with their babies were killed together, shot right through… and after most all of them had been killed a cry was made that all those who were not killed or wounded should come forth and they would be safe. Little boys… came out of their places of refuge, and as soon as they came in sight a number of soldiers surrounded them and butchered them."

Thomas H. Tibbles Omaha World Herald "Though the active attack lasted perhaps twenty minutes, the firing continued for an hour or two, whenever a soldier saw a sign of life. Indian women and children fled into the ravine to the south, and some of them on up out of it across the prairie, but the soldiers followed them and shot them down mercilessly." "Nothing I have seen in my whole… life ever affected or depressed or haunted me like the scenes I saw that night in that church. One un-wounded old woman… held a baby on her lap… I handed a cup of water to the old woman, telling her to give it to the child, who grabbed it as if parched with thirst. As she swallowed it hurriedly, I saw it gush right out again, a bloodstained stream, through a hole in her neck." Heartsick, I went to… find the surgeon… For a moment he stood there near the door, looking over the mass of suffering and dying women and children… The silence they kept was so complete that it was oppressive… Then to my amazement I saw that the surgeon, who I knew had served in the Civil War, attending the wounded… from the Wilderness to Appomattox, began to grow pale… 'This is the first time I've seen a lot of women and children shot to pieces,' he said. 'I can't stand it'…. Out at Wounded Knee, because a storm set in, followed by a blizzard, the bodies of the slain Indians lay untouched for three days, frozen stiff from where they had fallen. Finally they were buried in a large trench dug on the battlefield itself. On that third day Colonel Colby… saw the blanket of a corpse move… Under the blanket, snuggled up to its dead mother, he found a suckling baby girl."

Technically, , I guess you could call the altercation between the soldiers and the armed Indians a "battle". But, at some point, it definetly became a "massacre!" It could actually be that a few of the over 20 soldiers awarded the MOH were deserving of it. I highly doubt that "all" that received one were worthy of it. Some of them probably continued firing at the women and children, and that in my mind would negate their "heroic" efforts. (That may be a leap....but maybe not) There, lies a problem, I think it would be hard to differentiate between who keeps it or who gets there's taken away. As I said earlier, I'm not one to try to re-write history, and most times I would be against this. However, in this case it might be the right thing to do.


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bufrilla
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1:12p, 8/23/22
AG
only award for bravery at that time.
As a Marine Infantry Cmdr in Vietnam, had two Marines awarded MOH, Sgt OMalley and Cpl Prom
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aalan94
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5:41p, 9/4/22
AG
Quote:
Quote:
aalan94 said:
We should do this for Wilson's Veracruz invasion. More medals of honor than people killed. All to cover up the most pointless use of military force in our history.
May I introduce you to the Vietnam War?
I'm going to come back and call huge B.S. on this. Vietnam actually had a stated purpose: saving a country that had at least nominal freedom from the enslavement of communism.

Veracruz was literally an invasion to chastise another nation for not firing a salute with their guns. I'm not one to call the race card often, but Wilson was one of the most racist presidents in history, and it was an invasion born of his racism and the medals of honor were pushed through for insanely silly things that when you read them will be shocking. Literally handed out like candy for trifles, by an anti-war president trying to burnish his credentials and look tough.
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