Vicksburg: Grant's Campaign That Broke the Confederacy

3,135 Views | 22 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Stive
doubledog
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A good read to start this day. 160 years ago today Pemberton surrendered Vicksburg to Grant.

Grant's Vicksburg's campaign is an example of "if you do not succeed the first four or five times, try again".

Vicksburg did not celebrate the 4th from 1863-1945... Some things are hard to accept.

https://www.amazon.com/Vicksburg-Grants-Campaign-Broke-Confederacy/dp/1451641370


BQ78
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AG
Good book recommendation, it is interesting that Vicksburg took it so hard since Warren County voted overwhelmingly against secession.

Don is sort of updating Catton's "Grant Moves South" and "Grant Takes Command." So now you know what his next Civil War book will be.
p_bubel
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Awesome place to visit
Jugstore Cowboy
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AG
Thanks, I'll check it out. One of my direct ancestors was under Grant in an Illinois unit and memorialised at Vicksburg. I need to read more about it.
Smeghead4761
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I think Ed Bearss 3 volume magnum opus remains the definitive work on Vicksburg.

I will warn, however, that it is an EXTREMELY detailed and slow read. And, IMO, could be vastly improved by the inclusion of a (very) large and detailed map or maps.

Really, you could probably spin at least a Master's thesis, if not a PhD dissertation, out of building a historically accurate map of all of the areas covered by the campaign, then inserting zoom-ins showing unit positions and movements for all of the various actions and encounters.

Basically like Blue Force Tracker for all the unit movements, battles, and skirmishes, on an accurate 1862-63 map.
Froppe
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AG
One of my great-grandfathers was a doctor in the First Texas Infantry (I think that was his outfit) at Vicksburg. I have a portrait of him, that was done from a photo taken early in the siege, hanging on my wall. He was 31 at the time.

Years later, he and my grandfather survived the 1900 storm in Galveston. He was 68 then.

Thankfully, he had learned a lot of "holistic" medical treatments from the Coushatta Indians in Southeast Texas, which proved quite useful during both of those horrific events.

And, one of his sons was the first Aggie in the family, class of 1886. Old Army.
BQ78
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AG
Had to be the 2nd, many of them were from Galveston and the first was in Virginia, Maryland and Pennsylvania during the siege of Vicksburg.

Can you post the picture?
doubledog
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One of my history teachers at University once said "May 15, not July 2-4, was the turning point in the Civil War"

On May 15, 1863, Davis accepted Lee's polite refusal to send two or four divisions from Picketts and Hoods troops to aid in lifting the siege of Vicksburg. The rest is history, loss at Gettysburg and Vicksburg. Chickamauga is proof of what could happen when the Confederacy employed its interior lines. Of course in 1864, Lee was one year older and wiser.

The great counterfactual for the Confederacy, is that for by defeating Grant and not losing at Gettysburg, the outcome of the war would have been drastically different.
BillYeoman
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Speaking of Pemberton, I heard he recommended Grant for an accommodation after the Battle of Molina Del Rey. I also heard Pemberton brought that up during negotiations with Grant as a way to get better surrender terms and Grant was unflinching.

Pemberton is an interesting figure. Pennsylvanian who romanticized the South but wasn't fully accepted by the South.
BillYeoman
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I have also heard Vicksburg is one of the best marked battlefields in the world. It really is a great place to visit. I also like the Beechwood Inn for steaks.
one safe place
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The Vicksburg Civil War Museum on Washington Street has an amazing collection of artifacts and is worth a visit.
Froppe
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AG
BQ78 said:

Had to be the 2nd, many of them were from Galveston and the first was in Virginia, Maryland and Pennsylvania during the siege of Vicksburg.

Can you post the picture?
He lived in Liberty when the war broke out, organized a company from there, and they then joined Waul's Texas Legion. You were correct, in that he was with the 2nd Texas Infantry at Vicksburg.

Returning to Liberty after the war, he later moved his family to Double Bayou, in Chambers County, due to a plague that had broken out in Liberty. He and some of his sons ran a boat from Double Bayou to and from Galveston, and that's how he and my grandfather wound up stranded there during the 1900 hurricane. My great-grandfather rode out the storm at another of his sons' home on Broadway, while my grandfather stayed with the boat in the harbor. The boat survived, too. I guess it just wasn't their time to go!

I don't have the original photo from which my portrait was done. The photo belonged to one of my cousins, who has long since passed away. I don't know what became of the photo. He had the original portrait done from the photo, and had copies done for my dad, brother, and me. I can try to post a picture of the portrait that I have, if someone with better skills than myself could explain in third grader terms how to do so. I've never tried to do that before, as my skills are on a par with Archie Bunker, or even Barney Rubble.
JABQ04
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AG
Holy crap. What's his name. I had several relatives from Liberty who fought. A few in Hoods Texas Brigade and at least 1 in Wauls Legion.

Great Great Grandfather - Stephen Belt Brashear Company B, Wauls Texas Legion

In the vicinity was another Great Great Grandfather, John Earvin Robinson in the 131 Illinois.

Stephen's Daughter married Johns Son, one of their sons was my grandfather. John ended up on occupation duty in Texas, was mustered out in Hempstead and settled in Dayton, Texas
Froppe
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AG
JABQ04 said:

Holy crap. What's his name. I had several relatives from Liberty who fought. A few in Hoods Texas Brigade and at least 1 in Wauls Legion.

Great Great Grandfather - Stephen Belt Brashear Company B, Wauls Texas Legion

In the vicinity was another Great Great Grandfather, John Earvin Robinson in the 131 Illinois.

Stephen's Daughter married Johns Son, one of their sons was my grandfather. John ended up on occupation duty in Texas, was mustered out in Hempstead and settled in Dayton, Texas
His name was Capt. Benjamin Franklin Sterling. He married Mary Jane Bryan, a Liberty native, our family's first native Texan, born December 25, 1838. Her uncle Luke fought at San Jacinto, and her father, John Bryan, was also in Sam Houston's army, although he wasn't at San Jacinto. Their twin sons, James Bennett Sterling, Sr. and Benjamin Garland Sterling, moved to Dayton in the early 1900s. J.B., Sr. was my grandfather.

I grew up in Dayton. What was you Grandfather Robinson's first name?
JABQ04
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AG
Real name was Raymond, but went by Bill. My mom was born and grew up in Dayton and moved down the road to Crosby where I grew up. All her side of the family lives there or out in Eastgate. My kin are the Bode family.

Smeghead4761
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doubledog said:

One of my history teachers at University once said "May 15, not July 2-4, was the turning point in the Civil War"

On May 15, 1863, Davis accepted Lee's polite refusal to send two or four divisions from Picketts and Hoods troops to aid in lifting the siege of Vicksburg. The rest is history, loss at Gettysburg and Vicksburg. Chickamauga is proof of what could happen when the Confederacy employed its interior lines. Of course in 1864, Lee was one year older and wiser.

The great counterfactual for the Confederacy, is that for by defeating Grant and not losing at Gettysburg, the outcome of the war would have been drastically different.
I think that proposition ignores the facts on the ground, especially time-distance factors and the condition of the railroads in the CSA.

Pemberton had retreated into Vicksburg on May 17, 1863. Even if Lee had started those two divisions moving on the 15th, they wouldn't have been able to get to the vicinity of Vicksburg (remember, Grant's troops had trashed the railroads at Jackson, MS, on the 14th) in time to prevent Grant from investing the city.

Once Grant had Pemberton penned up in Vicksburg, he had more than enough troops to both keep Pemberton inside the city, and face the rest of his army around to deal with Joe Johnston coming in behind him.

I will grant that, with Hood and Pickett headed to the West, Lee probably wouldn't have lost Gettysburg - because the battle never would have been fought. Short two divisions, I doubt Lee would have launched his Pennsylvania campaign at all. Which would leave the Army of the Potomac stuck with the same problem it had had since the war started - stuck with the Army of NoVa between them and Richmond.

And with the Union capture of Knoxville in September, 1863, the CSA lost whatever value of interior lines they may have had between the Eastern and Western theaters, because any troops moving from one theater to the other had to be routed through Atlanta. Compare the movement of Longstreet's corps prior to Chickamauga to the movement of Hooker's corps to Chattanooga - the Union was able to move more troops, over a longer distance, in less time, because of the combination of efficient, well maintained railroads and river transportation.

Just speculation, but I would guess that in May-June 1863, the Union Army could probably have gotten troops from Virginia to Vicksburg almost as fast as the Confederacy if they had needed to, using railroads and the Ohio and Mississippi rivers.
one safe place
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JABQ04 said:

Holy crap. What's his name. I had several relatives from Liberty who fought. A few in Hoods Texas Brigade and at least 1 in Wauls Legion.

Great Great Grandfather - Stephen Belt Brashear Company B, Wauls Texas Legion

In the vicinity was another Great Great Grandfather, John Earvin Robinson in the 131 Illinois.

Stephen's Daughter married Johns Son, one of their sons was my grandfather. John ended up on occupation duty in Texas, was mustered out in Hempstead and settled in Dayton, Texas
Growing up, I knew of some of the names of those from the area involved in the Civil War, names such as Pickett and Chambers, and units such as the Moss Bluff Rebels (mostly where I grew up), the Liberty Invincibles. As I aged, I became more aware of others in both Liberty County and Chambers County and their imprint on both the Civil War and the Texas Revolution.
BQ78
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AG
Have you read Moss Bluff Rebel from the A&M press? Good look at the war in Texas and before and after
one safe place
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BQ78 said:

Have you read Moss Bluff Rebel from the A&M press? Good look at the war in Texas and before and after
I have not, thanks for the heads up. I have only recently (past few years) done much digging into Civil War related things. Had focused on my father's fighting in the Pacific and his father's fighting in France in World War I. Turning more attention now to the Civil War.

I just looked up the book and am sure I know some of Duncan's descendants and a few likely were clients of mine. I will download the book tonight. Again, thanks for the info!
Independence H-D
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I had relative at Vicksburg from NE Louisiana. Milton James Buie. Was supposedly in charge of the largest cannon on the Confederate side, called the whistling dick.
doubledog
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Smeghead4761 said:

doubledog said:

One of my history teachers at University once said "May 15, not July 2-4, was the turning point in the Civil War"

On May 15, 1863, Davis accepted Lee's polite refusal to send two or four divisions from Picketts and Hoods troops to aid in lifting the siege of Vicksburg. The rest is history, loss at Gettysburg and Vicksburg. Chickamauga is proof of what could happen when the Confederacy employed its interior lines. Of course in 1864, Lee was one year older and wiser.

The great counterfactual for the Confederacy, is that for by defeating Grant and not losing at Gettysburg, the outcome of the war would have been drastically different.
I think that proposition ignores the facts on the ground, especially time-distance factors and the condition of the railroads in the CSA.

Pemberton had retreated into Vicksburg on May 17, 1863. Even if Lee had started those two divisions moving on the 15th, they wouldn't have been able to get to the vicinity of Vicksburg (remember, Grant's troops had trashed the railroads at Jackson, MS, on the 14th) in time to prevent Grant from investing the city.

Once Grant had Pemberton penned up in Vicksburg, he had more than enough troops to both keep Pemberton inside the city, and face the rest of his army around to deal with Joe Johnston coming in behind him.

I will grant that, with Hood and Pickett headed to the West, Lee probably wouldn't have lost Gettysburg - because the battle never would have been fought. Short two divisions, I doubt Lee would have launched his Pennsylvania campaign at all. Which would leave the Army of the Potomac stuck with the same problem it had had since the war started - stuck with the Army of NoVa between them and Richmond.

And with the Union capture of Knoxville in September, 1863, the CSA lost whatever value of interior lines they may have had between the Eastern and Western theaters, because any troops moving from one theater to the other had to be routed through Atlanta. Compare the movement of Longstreet's corps prior to Chickamauga to the movement of Hooker's corps to Chattanooga - the Union was able to move more troops, over a longer distance, in less time, because of the combination of efficient, well maintained railroads and river transportation.

Just speculation, but I would guess that in May-June 1863, the Union Army could probably have gotten troops from Virginia to Vicksburg almost as fast as the Confederacy if they had needed to, using railroads and the Ohio and Mississippi rivers.
Good points, Grant was prepared to fight a two front battle at Vicksburg (trenches to the west and east). With Longstreet leading troops at Vicksburg, even under the Joe Johnston's command, it would have made a difference.

As for reinforcing Grant... Union troops would either need to take a long trip around Vicksburg or fight their way to Jackson, not an easy task with Confederate cavalry nipping at the heels.
LMCane
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p_bubel said:

Awesome place to visit
driving from Dallas to Hilton Head I stopped for a night at a great AIRBNB in vicksburg during Covid

the place itself was awesome- but Vicksburg's best days were in 1862.

pretty depressing town.
Stive
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AG
LMCane said:

p_bubel said:

Awesome place to visit
driving from Dallas to Hilton Head I stopped for a night at a great AIRBNB in vicksburg during Covid

the place itself was awesome- but Vicksburg's best days were in 1862.

pretty depressing town.

My mom and dad just drove to Atlanta and back to see some relatives. On the way back they stopped in Vicksburg for the night and said the exact same thing. For some reason they had to go to the store while they were there and ended up at Wal Mart. Mom said even the Wal Mart was depressing by Wal Mart standards. It was bad.
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