Beginning of the End for Women's Sports?

3,744 Views | 33 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by byfLuger41
Diego
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/joe-bidens-first-day-began-the-end-of-girls-sports-11611341066?mod=trending_now_pos2

How long until we see biological males playing women's college soccer?

**********************

And so it begins -

https://www.outsports.com/2020/1/17/21069390/womens-soccer-mara-gomez-transgender-player-argentina-primera-division-villa-san-marcos

CDub06
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I'll just say this: For anything like that, biological sex should be the factor.
greg.w.h
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I want to be careful. I don't mind being cancelled by cancel culture, but I don't want to offend the women either who support our sports or who play.

In my opinion the people affected need to decide whether to accept this or not. The rest of us feel awful but are reluctant to step over them lest it be viewed as offensive.

I personally believe this is unfortunate. And I believe it undoes the majority of the Title IX changes that created so many opportunities for women athletes. The risk of harming them is high if it continues. But they have to stand up for themselves.

I'll note the specific concern is not biological women seeking to compete with biological men. It specifically is when biological males...specifically XY males...seek to compete against women.

I'll also note that trying to work through it in terms of biology can lead to reductive reasoning and absurd discussions. We need a simple standard with minimal intrusion to administer it. But it must not be gamed.

Since Title IX passed until this order the standard was clear. And it arguably was a progressive triumph that benefited women.
wangus12
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This will affect high school and youth sports the most I think. College's aren't going to be forced to recruit those athletes (yet) and I think most aren't gonna cross that line, at least not immediately.
Mathguy64
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I am 99% certain I ran into this earlier this season reffing a game. Girls game with a player that ran, jumped, fouled and had the physical build of a male. Ironically I think they tried hard not to dominate the play.
jeffk
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Very tough to find a rational but also compassionate solution that fairly allows for cisgendered and transgendered athletes to compete together within the existing structures of school athletics. It's worth remembering too that a vast majority of trans students are not trying to somehow game the system for a competitive advantage - they just want to be on teams and play like their friends do.
AGC
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Why impose limitations on who should be able to opine about this? If I only have boys but my sister has a niece I still have skin in the game. We all have cousins, children, and siblings and in the future may have grandchildren, etc.

Society is not such that we can atomize it for decisions like this or isolate others from the variables.
AGC
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Shouldn't we require compassion from the individuals competing as well? Wouldn't a compassionate mtf also not play out of respect for, and sometimes the safety of, their competitors? Why are wants and desires always something to be indulged?
jeffk
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AGC said:

Shouldn't we require compassion from the individuals competing as well? Wouldn't a compassionate mtf also not play out of respect for, and sometimes the safety of, their competitors?


I'm positive that some make exactly that choice. But depending on young people to self-regulate their choices in only one direction is not how you provide oversight or regulation to a structure like youth sports.
AGC
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jeffk said:

AGC said:

Shouldn't we require compassion from the individuals competing as well? Wouldn't a compassionate mtf also not play out of respect for, and sometimes the safety of, their competitors?


I'm positive that some make exactly that choice. But depending on young people to self-regulate their choices in only one direction is not how you provide oversight or regulation to a structure like youth sports.


I agree, which is why compassion is not the appropriate lense through when to make the decision. This is bumping up against biological reality in a way that little else does. Urging compassion in the other direction, inclusivity, denies that and has a multiplicative harm. That is, not allowing one person to compete harms one person, while allowing them to compete when they can obliterate their field re-orders almost all results. For instance Connecticut where every girl below the track competitors dropped and saw their potential scholarships get harder to achieve. Further the psychological impact of being unable to compete with a field inherently tilted in someone else's favor is another factor, like the Australian women's rugby team with the mtf competitor.
jeffk
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I think you need to go back and reread my first post on the thread. You seem to be hung up on arguing a point that I wasn't making. You also seem to think I don't understand the current situation or the implications of the path we're on with public school youth sports; both of which are incorrect assumptions. It's not a big deal, that's unfortunately just how TexAgs (and the internet at large) works most of the time.

The current structure of youth sports in public schools is not prepared to use gender to determine who can and can't compete. It's a binary sex-based system that depends solely on self-reporting of that binary classification. There have been some attempts to adjust that system by districts and states, but those have largely proved toothless against federal regulations against discrimination. The recent executive order has reiterated that this is a fight the federal government is committed to, so if states or school districts want to make adjustments to the systems that currently exist, they'll have to be a bit more creative and careful than they have been in the past. And again, public schools (and athletics) exist to serve ALL STUDENTS, so the complete exclusion of a group of students isn't a legal option and I think it falls contrary the mission or societal endeavor of public education (which is practical but also compassionate, IMO).
deadbq03
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jeffk said:

Very tough to find a rational but also compassionate solution that fairly allows for cisgendered and transgendered athletes to compete together within the existing structures of school athletics. It's worth remembering too that a vast majority of trans students are not trying to somehow game the system for a competitive advantage - they just want to be on teams and play like their friends do.
Well said.

I think best case, we reach a place generations from now where there's no societal stigma and they could play with biological males and not be subjected to hate.

Right now, it's lose-lose. Play with men and face ridicule at best, physical harm at worst. Play with women and be a pariah for having an unfair advantage (and still get a measure of ridicule and harm).
greg.w.h
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AGC said:

Why impose limitations on who should be able to opine about this? If I only have boys but my sister has a niece I still have skin in the game. We all have cousins, children, and siblings and in the future may have grandchildren, etc.

Society is not such that we can atomize it for decisions like this or isolate others from the variables.
I counseled carefulness. But offered women need to speak out. They have. Then got canceled. Like Martina Navratilova.

Women need to speak up. Men can, too. But women who don't speak up are in effect condoning it. Not in their hearts but by sympathy nonetheless. I encourage women to speak up. That's all.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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jeffk said:

Very tough to find a rational but also compassionate solution that fairly allows for cisgendered and transgendered athletes to compete together within the existing structures of school athletics. It's worth remembering too that a vast majority of trans students are not trying to somehow game the system for a competitive advantage - they just want to be on teams and play like their friends do.
Well said.
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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deadbq03 said:

jeffk said:

Very tough to find a rational but also compassionate solution that fairly allows for cisgendered and transgendered athletes to compete together within the existing structures of school athletics. It's worth remembering too that a vast majority of trans students are not trying to somehow game the system for a competitive advantage - they just want to be on teams and play like their friends do.
Well said.

I think best case, we reach a place generations from now where there's no societal stigma and they could play with biological males and not be subjected to hate.

Right now, it's lose-lose. Play with men and face ridicule at best, physical harm at worst. Play with women and be a pariah for having an unfair advantage (and still get a measure of ridicule and harm).
Better yet - a league of their own !
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
Carnwellag2
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wangus12 said:

This will affect high school and youth sports the most I think. College's aren't going to be forced to recruit those athletes (yet) and I think most aren't gonna cross that line, at least not immediately.
it only takes 1 woke coach to recruit a male to play on his women's team and then every other coach will have to do the same in order to compete.
jeffk
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A HS coach recruiting a cisgendered male to pretend to be transgendered in order to win games is the exact opposite of "woke."

Edit - same for college coaches.
joemeister
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It's already occurring in NCAA track and field.
AGC
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I read it which is why I questioned compassion as a useful tool. It is not for this discussion. Individuals cannot wield the fabric of society or structure of entire systems over the heads of others; it's not compassion at that point.
jeffk
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The point I was hoping you'd get is that compassion wasn't the only tool I advocated using here. When used in conjunction with rationality and fairness, we might be able to figure out a way to meet this new challenge in a way that supports all athletes.
aTmAg
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If you were born a male, you play with males. If you were born a female, you play with females.

It shouldn't be that hard of a thing to figure out.
Agsncws
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Fully confident that female sports will survive and will do so without any input from TexAgs. Fully confident.
Rudyjax
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aTmAg said:

If you were born a male, you play with males. If you were born a female, you play with females.

It shouldn't be that hard of a thing to figure out.
It's more complicated than that. If your daughter was a wrestler, would you be ok with her wrestling a girl that is taking hormones to be a male?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html

2x state champ.
aTmAg
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Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

If you were born a male, you play with males. If you were born a female, you play with females.

It shouldn't be that hard of a thing to figure out.
It's more complicated than that. If your daughter was a wrestler, would you be ok with her wrestling a girl that is taking hormones to be a male?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html

2x state champ.
If you are talking about steroids then then they should not be able to compete at all. They should be subject to the same rules as when anybody else takes steroids.

Regardless, I should clarify: Girls should be able to "play up" with boys if they can hang (without steroids). Like girls who are kickers in high school and stuff. My daughter played soccer with boys for several years. The whole point of separate girls divisions is so that they can compete without getting crushed in every aspect.
Rudyjax
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aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

If you were born a male, you play with males. If you were born a female, you play with females.

It shouldn't be that hard of a thing to figure out.
It's more complicated than that. If your daughter was a wrestler, would you be ok with her wrestling a girl that is taking hormones to be a male?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html

2x state champ.
If you are talking about steroids then then they should not be able to compete at all. They should be subject to the same rules as when anybody else takes steroids.

Regardless, I should clarify: Girls should be able to "play up" with boys if they can hang (without steroids). Like girls who are kickers in high school and stuff. My daughter played soccer with boys for several years. The whole point of separate girls divisions is so that they can compete without getting crushed in every aspect.
Read the article. He wanted to wrestle boys but they wouldn't let him.

It wasn't steroids but male hormones in a gender transition.
aTmAg
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Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

If you were born a male, you play with males. If you were born a female, you play with females.

It shouldn't be that hard of a thing to figure out.
It's more complicated than that. If your daughter was a wrestler, would you be ok with her wrestling a girl that is taking hormones to be a male?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html

2x state champ.
If you are talking about steroids then then they should not be able to compete at all. They should be subject to the same rules as when anybody else takes steroids.

Regardless, I should clarify: Girls should be able to "play up" with boys if they can hang (without steroids). Like girls who are kickers in high school and stuff. My daughter played soccer with boys for several years. The whole point of separate girls divisions is so that they can compete without getting crushed in every aspect.
Read the article. He wanted to wrestle boys but they wouldn't let him.

It wasn't steroids but male hormones in a gender transition.
It wants me to sign up to read it. I'm not in the mood for that.

If the hormones gave an advantage (which is sounds like it did by the fact 2x state champ thing), then the no-compete rule should still apply.
Rudyjax
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aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

If you were born a male, you play with males. If you were born a female, you play with females.

It shouldn't be that hard of a thing to figure out.
It's more complicated than that. If your daughter was a wrestler, would you be ok with her wrestling a girl that is taking hormones to be a male?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html

2x state champ.
If you are talking about steroids then then they should not be able to compete at all. They should be subject to the same rules as when anybody else takes steroids.

Regardless, I should clarify: Girls should be able to "play up" with boys if they can hang (without steroids). Like girls who are kickers in high school and stuff. My daughter played soccer with boys for several years. The whole point of separate girls divisions is so that they can compete without getting crushed in every aspect.
Read the article. He wanted to wrestle boys but they wouldn't let him.

It wasn't steroids but male hormones in a gender transition.
It wants me to sign up to read it. I'm not in the mood for that.

If the hormones gave an advantage (which is sounds like it did by the fact 2x state champ thing), then the no-compete rule should still apply.

Read the story before commenting. It's not that simple.
aTmAg
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Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

If you were born a male, you play with males. If you were born a female, you play with females.

It shouldn't be that hard of a thing to figure out.
It's more complicated than that. If your daughter was a wrestler, would you be ok with her wrestling a girl that is taking hormones to be a male?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html

2x state champ.
If you are talking about steroids then then they should not be able to compete at all. They should be subject to the same rules as when anybody else takes steroids.

Regardless, I should clarify: Girls should be able to "play up" with boys if they can hang (without steroids). Like girls who are kickers in high school and stuff. My daughter played soccer with boys for several years. The whole point of separate girls divisions is so that they can compete without getting crushed in every aspect.
Read the article. He wanted to wrestle boys but they wouldn't let him.

It wasn't steroids but male hormones in a gender transition.
It wants me to sign up to read it. I'm not in the mood for that.

If the hormones gave an advantage (which is sounds like it did by the fact 2x state champ thing), then the no-compete rule should still apply.

Read the story before commenting. It's not that simple.
I don't care enough to pay $1 to read that story. But it seems that what you said is enough info. Unless you are claiming that those hormones had no advantage and that the 2x state champ thing was merely coincidental.
Rudyjax
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aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

If you were born a male, you play with males. If you were born a female, you play with females.

It shouldn't be that hard of a thing to figure out.
It's more complicated than that. If your daughter was a wrestler, would you be ok with her wrestling a girl that is taking hormones to be a male?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html

2x state champ.
If you are talking about steroids then then they should not be able to compete at all. They should be subject to the same rules as when anybody else takes steroids.

Regardless, I should clarify: Girls should be able to "play up" with boys if they can hang (without steroids). Like girls who are kickers in high school and stuff. My daughter played soccer with boys for several years. The whole point of separate girls divisions is so that they can compete without getting crushed in every aspect.
Read the article. He wanted to wrestle boys but they wouldn't let him.

It wasn't steroids but male hormones in a gender transition.
It wants me to sign up to read it. I'm not in the mood for that.

If the hormones gave an advantage (which is sounds like it did by the fact 2x state champ thing), then the no-compete rule should still apply.

Read the story before commenting. It's not that simple.
I don't care enough to pay $1 to read that story. But it seems that what you said is enough info. Unless you are claiming that those hormones had no advantage and that the 2x state champ thing was merely coincidental.
What i'm saying is that you can't blanketly say that you should be forced based on your birth gender to compete at that gender.

Mack wanted to wrestle with the boys. They didn't allow him to. So he wrestled with the girls and won state twice.

They should've let him wrestle with the boys, but if they did that, they would've opened up transgender females to wrestle with the girls.

It's a slippery slope not matter how you go.

Google Mack Beggs.

Aggies1322
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AG
Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

If you were born a male, you play with males. If you were born a female, you play with females.

It shouldn't be that hard of a thing to figure out.
It's more complicated than that. If your daughter was a wrestler, would you be ok with her wrestling a girl that is taking hormones to be a male?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html

2x state champ.
If you are talking about steroids then then they should not be able to compete at all. They should be subject to the same rules as when anybody else takes steroids.

Regardless, I should clarify: Girls should be able to "play up" with boys if they can hang (without steroids). Like girls who are kickers in high school and stuff. My daughter played soccer with boys for several years. The whole point of separate girls divisions is so that they can compete without getting crushed in every aspect.
Read the article. He wanted to wrestle boys but they wouldn't let him.

It wasn't steroids but male hormones in a gender transition.
It wants me to sign up to read it. I'm not in the mood for that.

If the hormones gave an advantage (which is sounds like it did by the fact 2x state champ thing), then the no-compete rule should still apply.

Read the story before commenting. It's not that simple.
I don't care enough to pay $1 to read that story. But it seems that what you said is enough info. Unless you are claiming that those hormones had no advantage and that the 2x state champ thing was merely coincidental.
What i'm saying is that you can't blanketly say that you should be forced based on your birth gender to compete at that gender.

Mack wanted to wrestle with the boys. They didn't allow him to. So he wrestled with the girls and won state twice.

They should've let him wrestle with the boys, but if they did that, they would've opened up transgender females to wrestle with the girls.

It's a slippery slope not matter how you go.

Google Mack Beggs.




Yeah.. they shouldn't allow her to wrestle boys or girls. If you're a girl taking hormones that provide a competitive advantage, oops, too bad. You just disqualified yourself from sports. I have compassion for those who have to deal with this mental disorder - but instead of catering to their every want i think they should have to understand there are consequences to their actions.
joemeister
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I feel bad for the kids dealing with these issues, but life isn't fair. It makes no sense to me that we should be changing rules to account for a very small population group when the rule change will have major ramifications for the integrity of the competitions. As a previous poster said, decisions lead to consequences. The kids may not have a choice about their state of mind, they and their parents have a choice about how to treat it. If that treatment includes transitioning, there are consequences for that choice.

Individuals going through a transition should be treated with empathy and respect, but we should not ignore biology for the sake of compassion. Especially when that compassion will lead to a massive competitive advantage against another group (girls) that also deserve to be respected. I encourage people to go back and read the articles and interviews published after the international olympic committee released it's proposed rule change to allow transitioned women to compete in women's sports. It will not be long before track and field is dominated by women who were born as men. It's already started at the college level in the U.S.
aTmAg
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Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

Look guys... said:

aTmAg said:

If you were born a male, you play with males. If you were born a female, you play with females.

It shouldn't be that hard of a thing to figure out.
It's more complicated than that. If your daughter was a wrestler, would you be ok with her wrestling a girl that is taking hormones to be a male?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html

2x state champ.
If you are talking about steroids then then they should not be able to compete at all. They should be subject to the same rules as when anybody else takes steroids.

Regardless, I should clarify: Girls should be able to "play up" with boys if they can hang (without steroids). Like girls who are kickers in high school and stuff. My daughter played soccer with boys for several years. The whole point of separate girls divisions is so that they can compete without getting crushed in every aspect.
Read the article. He wanted to wrestle boys but they wouldn't let him.

It wasn't steroids but male hormones in a gender transition.
It wants me to sign up to read it. I'm not in the mood for that.

If the hormones gave an advantage (which is sounds like it did by the fact 2x state champ thing), then the no-compete rule should still apply.

Read the story before commenting. It's not that simple.
I don't care enough to pay $1 to read that story. But it seems that what you said is enough info. Unless you are claiming that those hormones had no advantage and that the 2x state champ thing was merely coincidental.
What i'm saying is that you can't blanketly say that you should be forced based on your birth gender to compete at that gender.

Mack wanted to wrestle with the boys. They didn't allow him to. So he wrestled with the girls and won state twice.

They should've let him wrestle with the boys, but if they did that, they would've opened up transgender females to wrestle with the girls.

It's a slippery slope not matter how you go.

Google Mack Beggs.
I absolutely can blanket say they should be force based on birth gender. They force that type of stuff all the time. That's why 12 year olds can't play on U10 teams, why select teams can't compete in REC leagues, and why 6A high schools can't "identify as 4A" and crush everybody in the playoffs. The entire point is to try to keep competition even.

If one takes hormones that has the side effect of turning a mediocre competitor into a 2x state champion, then they should not be allowed to compete. There is no slippery slope. Just common sense.
Diego
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Diego
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byfLuger41
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aTmAg said:

If you were born a male, you play with males. If you were born a female, you play with females.

It shouldn't be that hard of a thing to figure out.


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