US won their opening match against Ghana 3-0. But they were up 2 players for most of the second half and couldn't add to that number.

Game 2 has been a disaster. Just lost 3-0 to the Netherlands and couldn't score up a player for the last 15 minutes. Looks like they will need a win against Japan to even get out of the group stage, amd even with a win they may not. And if they don't, it will be the second straight tournament that has happened. A 2 year sample size of players isn't the end all, but it doesn't bode well for the future. Especially since it's many of the same problems the senior team has, mainly no finishers. And little tactical awareness compared to the Dutch.

I am a little unsure how if they beat Japan you still dont think they will advance

Mia Pante gets the start on the back line for Canada in their match versus the French. Just started on FS2.

Looks like Mia may be playing for us a little sooner than she hoped for. Canada down 2-0 to France with 20 minutes to go.

If the US beats Japan and the Dutch beat Ghana, all three teams are on 6 points. Then it's goal differential, and a three goal loss isn't helping that much at all.

Pahdz said:

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The world has finally caught up to the US in the women's game

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We all saw it coming at the 2019 World Cup I guess

Still pay to play at the developmental levels in the US and we are starting to pay for it as the women's game becomes more technical and less about unleashing the best athletes.

I re-read Das Reboot the other day and even though its about the mens game in Germany my perception is that multiple countries in Europe and Asia are following the same model for their women's programs.

I only watch sections of the game against the Dutch but its like all the U20 players were trying to advance the ball as fast as possible. Its like every player wants to play like a Tobin Heath or a Mallory Pugh. It just didn't seem very strategic and frankly the defending was poor.

Part of it as well is that the Euro leagues have surpassed NWSL as being the top standard in the women's game. Being tied to the bigger clubs who are now putting more focus and money into the women's game has been paying dividends at the international level for these countries

How many of our players are top collegians?

Ken Scarborough said:

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How many of our players are top collegians?

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All but 2 on the roster are collegians or academy players. Pretty sure there are more professionals in the Dutch U-20's.

akm91 said:

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Ken Scarborough said:

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How many of our players are top collegians?

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All but 2 on the roster are collegians or academy players. Pretty sure there are more professionals in the Dutch U-20's.

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I guess more of the question is, how many of them are the best U20s we have, or are the the best available?

In watching the game the commentators would mention a Dutch player and what professional team they were on and it seemed invariably the US player would be tied to a college program.


Seems like it would be really hard for a college program to come close to the intensity and quantity of development that they would see in a pro team/pro academy. Also the level of game competition has to be at a higher level.

Well Rodman is playing with the USWNT so this lot is probably the best that we have. I can't think of any other age eligible players that would be better. It's going to get worse as the top European countries keeps stacking youth level teams that are all comprised of professional/academy players going against US teams comprised of club and college players. The difference in technique/skills are clear to see.

It's funny to see the juxtaposition between the mens and women's programs.

Knucklesammich said:

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In watching the game the commentators would mention a Dutch player and what professional team they were on and it seemed invariably the US player would be tied to a college program.


Seems like it would be really hard for a college program to come close to the intensity and quantity of development that they would see in a pro team/pro academy. Also the level of game competition has to be at a higher level.

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It's amazing how our colllege system is hurting our women like it used to hurt our men.

NWSL still has an age requirement of 18.

We're not beating Japan.

The NWSL no longer has a minimum age requirement. That was halted by the Moultrie lawsuit. Shaw (17 years old and from Dallas) is now playing with the Wave.

Many of the girls on the European teams still come over to the US for a couple years for college. FSU has been filled with internationals the last few years. Four on the England team who won Euros played at UNC. One of the starters (maybe even a goal scorer) for the U20 Dutch who just beat us played at Dallas Baptist.

King Koda said:

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The NWSL no longer has a minimum age requirement. That was halted by the Moultrie lawsuit. Shaw (17 years old and from Dallas) is now playing with the Wave.

Many of the girls on the European teams still come over to the US for a couple years for college. FSU has been filled with internationals the last few years. Four on the England team who won Euros played at UNC. One of the starters (maybe even a goal scorer) for the U20 Dutch who just beat us played at Dallas Baptist.

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I get the sense that's how it was but not how it will be or is if that makes sense? Meaning that the coming over to play in college is an option much farther down the list vs just a couple of years ago?

There was a good couple of decades where the US collegiate system was the best option available to not only American female players but also female players from other countries around the world. The Euro clubs have recently started to reinvest in the women's side of their organizations and that will likely continue to grow in the coming decades. So yeah, I expect to see the gap between the USWNT and the rest of the world continue to close. I do think we'll be in contention for trophies year in year out though, just not the untouchable force we've been in the past.

Our top .1% off players may end up going across the pond to train with the clubs, but I'd bet a majority continue to stay here with a lot of them playing college ball before going pro. It's still an opportunity to earn a college degree largely for free and that's pretty valuable and not something that's present in the Euro model.

Using the U20 results to somehow diminish the college system is a little bit of a reach. At most, these girls have been in college for one year. Several of them have yet to be (or will never play) in college. The U23 results may be a better barometer of the viability of collegiate play vs professional organizations from Europe.
These U20s may better represent the disfunction seen at the club level over the last five years with the failed attempt at DA and the re-emergence of ECNL.

King Koda said:

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Using the U20 results to somehow diminish the college system is a little bit of a reach. At most, these girls have been in college for one year. Several of them have yet to be (or will never play) in college. The U23 results may be a better barometer of the viability of collegiate play vs professional organizations from Europe.
These U20s may better represent the disfunction seen at the club level over the last five years with the failed attempt at DA and the re-emergence of ECNL.

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I think both parts of the system have glaring weaknesses that will give us problems on the international stage in the coming years that the european countries in particular have better answers for long term.

club soccer is a gong show.

Knucklesammich said:

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In watching the game the commentators would mention a Dutch player and what professional team they were on and it seemed invariably the US player would be tied to a college program.


Seems like it would be really hard for a college program to come close to the intensity and quantity of development that they would see in a pro team/pro academy. Also the level of game competition has to be at a higher level.

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I think the bolded part above will be the ultimate differentiator in the long run. If players are in a professional academy from age 15 or so through U-23 they are going to have may hundreds or even thousands of hours more training than players that opt for youth academy and then college play. The Euros have the development pathway down with their professional clubs so applying that to the women's side of the equation will produce positive results.

It is remarkable to watch the bigger European clubs spin up women's program. I am a Dortmund supporter and last year was their women's team inaugural season.

They started in I believe the 8th tier of German women's soccer. First off they are the second biggest club in Germany and did not get a free pass, but there are already 8 tiers of women's soccer with Pro/Reg requirements.

We can't even agree on club league hierarchies from town to town/region to region.

BTW they got promoted up to the 7th tier with 143 goals scored and 3 goals allows, so evidently the quality at those lower levels is probably pretty bad, but still a multi year process for a club like that will force them to build a quality academy over time at a club that already knows on the men's side how to bring young players up to speed very quickly.

I mean, if you think about it, someone playing professional soccer without the practice restriction of collete is going to be ahead of someone without those restrictions.

This will definitely hurt in the U20.

carl spacklers hat said:

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Knucklesammich said:

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In watching the game the commentators would mention a Dutch player and what professional team they were on and it seemed invariably the US player would be tied to a college program.


Seems like it would be really hard for a college program to come close to the intensity and quantity of development that they would see in a pro team/pro academy. Also the level of game competition has to be at a higher level.

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I think the bolded part above will be the ultimate differentiator in the long run. If players are in a professional academy from age 15 or so through U-23 they are going to have may hundreds or even thousands of hours more training than players that opt for youth academy and then college play. The Euros have the development pathway down with their professional clubs so applying that to the women's side of the equation will produce positive results.

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A opinion completely from the outside looking in: I think there may be a cultural difference between the expectations for our young ladies here in the US versus Europe. A college scholarship seems to be primary goal for many of the ECNL parents. For better or worse I think we have a higher value for 'life after soccer' here in the states.

Yeah, there's been a lot of good reporting on what happens to kids in the Euro youth pro academies that don't make the senior squad. Most of what I've read is about the boys, but I'm sure similar outcomes exist for the girls.

In short, for the ones who eventually become senior pros, the Euro model is outstanding, for all the rest, our US collegiate system might be better long-term.

jeffk said:

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In short, for the ones who eventually become senior pros, the Euro model is outstanding, for all the rest, our US collegiate system might be better long-term.

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I think in the long run, US will have the benefit of being able to have both models coexist and allow the players to chose which route to take. This is hugely dependent on the NWSL clubs mimicing what MLS clubs are doing with their academies.

And the collegiate sports structure not imploding...

jeffk said:

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And the collegiate sports structure not imploding...

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Exactly. That will benefit the US in the long run as we will get the occasional late bloomers that need college experience to realize their full potential instead of washing out in the professional ranks at younger age.

Ken Scarborough said:

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I mean, if you think about it, someone playing professional soccer without the practice restriction of collete is going to be ahead of someone without those restrictions.

This will definitely hurt in the U20.

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I think this is a critical piece that hasn't been emphasized. Plus our U20s just don't spend as much time playing together as some other nations (because they're all scattered playing at elite colleges, where other nations are nearby playing for the same or nearby pro or semi-pro teams).

I would not hit the panic button just because of poor youth performance...it's just not as great a barometer as we'd like to think.

That said, lots of other great posts highlighting other nations investment (both by federations and clubs) which has definitely closed the gap. I honestly am not sure the US makes it out of the quarterfinals at the 2023 WWC, but I still think that speaks more to the massive improvement in the competition more so than any dropoff in US talent.

A couple of questions:

When was the last time the US Women's U20 team won a World Cup? Y'all make it seem as if they have won them all up until these last two.

What about a U17 World Cup? If college was the problem, shouldn't the US be killing the other countries at the U17 age group? Instead, we have never won one and only finished in the top four once.

Maybe it's more about how the US builds it's teams and the lack of cohesion more than anything else. I'd be willing to bet the average age of starters for the US team is close to a year younger than any of the other top teams at the U20s.

The US does have some problems when it comes to determining the longer term payoff when it comes to going professional vs college, but it's not like the NWSL teams have professional academies similar to that present for European males. The problem is until more money is in the girls game, the professional academies won't be that advanced for European females either. Our U15 team beat the Netherlands 3-0 and Germany 3-1 in friendlies this summer. I wouldn't quite jump on the European model for females just yet. Much of it on the female side will be dependent on whether the money available is enough to influence girls to give up much of their life to pursue soccer full time. Either way, the major advantage Title IX gave the US has deteriorated over the last 15 years.

The pro teams in Europe are figuring it out. Arsenal have one of the top youth systems out there and they have women's soccer starting at U8.

The WSL and the women's league are drawing some pretty big crowds as well for matches. The capability to tap into fans with a desire to support their local club is much more easily tapped than convincing to watch the NWSL.

Japan up 3-1 late; US needed to win by 2 goals to advance:

Hopefully this starts to set off some alarm bells in us soccer. Combined 6-1 as of now deficit to the two teams we played with a pulse.

Mia Pante in the starting lineup for Canada starting in 10 minutes.