How do you not win a title when you have arguably the greatest point guard ever and probably the second best PF ever (maybe the best scoring PF)??? Were there supporting casts just not that good or what? I mean they had a few talented guys around them if I remember correctly. I guess the Rockets, Bulls, and 2001 Mavs were just too much to handle.

thank you for answering your own question...

Greg Ostertag

Ostertag dominated The Dream in the 1997 WCF

hth

I guess I don't consider it dominating when you allow them to average 27 points per game.

Bryon Russell/Jeff Hornacek/Greg Ostertag/Shandon Anderson/Antoine Carr/Greg Foster, in whatever combinations you threw out there with Stockton and Malone, just weren't quite accomplished enough to get over the hump.

When the Bulls could throw Luc Longley and Bill Wennington out there at center against Utah and not be at a matchup disadvantage, that speaks volumes.

Not to mention that guy named Michael Jordan...

"First in Sight, Ready to Fight"

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The fact that it took 6 replies makes me think some of you weren't watching basketball in the 90's.

Michael Jordan wrecked a lot of people's dreams.

[This message has been edited by MassAggie97 (edited 5/5/2010 8:13a).]

Winning 60 games in 95, then choking away a 2-1 lead in the first round (best of 5) sure didn't help.

I'm seeing a lot of parrallels to the current Mavs run. Great players, win a lot of games in the regular season, can't get over the hump.

I just never saw that killer instinct with the Jazz. They kinda remind me of the Seattle Supersonics (the Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton team) that had two studs but then just couldn't put the other pieces together to get past Jordan.

Also, the '93 Phoenix team was better than anything Utah ever put on the floor. Majerle, KJ, and Barkley. That was the only time during the Bulls run when they actually beat a better team.

Stockton was a damn good player, but he's not even near the same pantheon as greatest PG ever. Very consistent and had great longevity, but I'd take Magic, Payton, Thomas, Archibald, Robertson as being clearly better than Stockton.

I think Stockton is the prototypical PG. If you were to build someone that you would want a PG to be, it is him.
Tough
Durable
great passer
great at the pick and pop/pick and roll
Hit the outside shot
plays defense
dirty enough to get in the other team's head
run half court or fast break.

That's not to say there aren't players better than him. But I think he is the prototype. Magic was a freak.

to go along with what GS just posted, i am still amazed as his career FG%.

Stockton shot 51.5% for his CAREER...and his lowest yearly total was 47.1% his rookie season.

oh yeah, and he only missed 54 games over 19 seasons.

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but I'd take Magic, Payton, Thomas, Archibald, Robertson as being clearly better than Stockton.

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It would obviously depend on the other 4 guys on the floor, but I can't think of too many instances where I'd take Payton over Stockton at PG.

edit: the more I think about it, I'd probably take Stockton over Thomas, too.

[This message has been edited by Gramercy Riffs (edited 5/5/2010 8:59a).]

Payton over Stockton? Sorry but no.

i'd debate any day that Payton is not "clearly better" than Stockton.

One thing to remember about the Jazz is that for as good as Karl Malone was in the first 45 minutes of the game, he was terrible in the last 3. One of the most un-clutch superstars of all time.

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It would obviously depend on the other 4 guys on the floor, but I can't think of too many instances where I'd take Payton over Stockton at PG.

edit: the more I think about it, I'd probably take Stockton over Thomas, too.

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No way is Stockton better than Isaiah Thomas.

Comparing him t Gary Payton is tricky.

Gary Payton was a better basketball player, better scorer, and a better defender.

I think Stockton made his teamates better and may have been a better "pure" point guard.

All in all I would take Gary Payton.

I think Gary Payton may be a better basketball player like Allen Iverson and Stephon Marbury were better basketball players. But if I had a post player like Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon or David Robinson in place, I would chose Stockton 11 times out of 10 to build a championship team.

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How do you not win a title when you have arguably the greatest point guard ever and probably the second best PF ever

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MJ is the answer.

Nobody won a title during his prime with him in the league except his teammates (exception for the one year where he played part of a season.)

They had this exact discussion on the Dan Patrick show yesterday.

IMO, Gramercy hit the nail on the head. If it were a draft, and I were taking a PG #1, I'd select Zeke just for his ability to score, take over games, and lead by his will.

If I had a bunch of studs already in place and a prime finisher at the rim, I'd take Stockton in a heartbeat because he is more of a facilitator and makes everyone better.

Taking it back to the Dan Patrick show, they were debating the pros/cons of Rondo versus Deron Williams. I actually put Rondo in the same category as Stockton, Williams in the same category as Isaiah from a "skill" standpoint. Watching Rondo play is like watching any of the great team facilitators over the years. He puts it in the right guys hands at the right time, every time. If he needs to, he'll score. He just doesn't make too many bad plays, and a lot of his assists come from the perimeter.
Williams is clearly a better pure scoring threat. A lot of his assists come with him in the paint after his drive has been cut off, which doesn't happen often.

I see the Isaiah/Stockton debate as being very similar to the Rondo/Williams debate. As Gramercy said, it would depend on the other 4 guys on the floor.

Damn... didn't know how much response my comment would receive.

Pertaining to Isaiah, he was the last PG to more or less put a team on his back and carry his team to multiple championships. He's hands down better than Stockton. Isaiah's legacy has been busted up more by his horrible management career than any other player in basketball.

Payton has been a little more of a debate... and I understand that... I suppose there might be a little more debate to it, but they did about as much as the Jazz did in the 90's and Shawn Kemp... overrated. Gary was a better defender, scorer, and athlete than Stockton... and as a facilitator, he was no slouch either. That's not to take anything away from Stockton... he really was great, but if Payton didn't run his mouth so much and rub so many people the wrong way, he'd be thought of a lot better than he is. His mouth has ruined his perception largely IMO.

If MJ had not retired those 2 years would the Houston Rockets have won or would MJ be wearing 8 rings and even more gaudy stats.

Glad he retired for good in 98-99 because he might have kept Spurs Title #1 from happening.


MJ, Timmy, Shaq and Kobe have kept many a superstar from collecting a ring in the past 20 years.......

The '95 Rockets and the Bulls would've been a classic. Anybody who assumes Chicago would've won probably didn't watch much of the play-offs that year.

Bro, Chicago would've won... and it wouldnt have been close. Aint dont even bring up the regualr season matchups bull sh*t.

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Bro, Chicago would've won... and it wouldnt have been close. Aint dont even bring up the regualr season matchups bull sh*t.

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well, that settles it.

i actually think the '94 team would have been a much better matchup to stop the bulls. vernon and ellie were 2 guys that typically played well against jordan. and the bulls would have had a tough matchup on the interior.

...and don't call me bro, you illiterate, Jackie Chiles emulating, murderer liberating, dead guy.

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Bro, Chicago would've won... and it wouldnt have been close. Aint dont even bring up the regualr season matchups bull sh*t.

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Outstanding argument right there.

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Bro, Chicago would've won... and it wouldnt have been close. Aint dont even bring up the regualr season matchups bull sh*t.

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Outstanding argument right there.

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Bro, Chicago would've won... and it wouldnt have been close. Aint dont even bring up the regualr season matchups bull sh*t.

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Outstanding argument right there.

Outstanding argument right there.

you Rockets fans are so easily drawn offsides

I'm a Mavs fan and GS is a Spurs fan. As for the multi-post wonder, idk.

outstanding argument