Dallas / Charlotte trade

1,806 Views | 38 Replies | Last: 15 yr ago by HotardAg07
jakester03
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AG
Passed up Jefferson but then takes this poopoo platter:

WojYahooNBA

Charlotte has traded Tyson Chandler and Alex Ajinca to Dallas for Dampier, Matt Carroll and Najera, a league source tells Y! Sports.
SuperAg05
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AG
Wait, all that talk from Cuban and others about the DUST chip, and they waste it on Chandler and Ajinca?

Don't get me wrong, the Rockets would take either of those guys as a Yao back-up, but I thought that Damp's unguaranteed contract was going to get the Mav's a superstar (or so some of their fans assumed)...
Ags2012
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Fail off season. We already have a player who's only skill set is being tall and athletic.

Al Jefferson is 25, Chandler 27.


There is no positive spin on this.
Guitarsoup
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AG
quote:
Charlotte has traded Tyson Chandler and Alex Ajinca to Dallas for Dampier, Matt Carroll and Najera, a league source tells Y! Sports.


This trade doesn't work financially. You need to drop Carroll or Najera.

In any case, hilarious.
Ags2012
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quote:
This trade doesn't work financially. You need to drop Carroll or Najera.

In any case, hilarious.

Have the TPE.

[This message has been edited by Ags2012 (edited 7/13/2010 1:58p).]
jakester03
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AG
Terrible. Just terrible.

From being on the cusp of a great trade, to epic fail.
SuperAg05
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quote:

This trade doesn't work financially. You need to drop Carroll or Najera.



What 2012 said is correct.

The Cats have a $3mil TPE from the Raja Bell deal, so it's actually two simultaneous deals.

TPE for Najera
Ajinca/Chandler for Damp/Carroll
jakester03
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AG
Why the Najera deal though? Now we're back to needing a backup 4. Not that he was great, but he was a hustle guy and a fan favorite.

Was that all to get rid of the Carroll contract?
rhutton125
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I don't watch the Mavs enough (and I certainly don't watch the Bobcats), but can someone explain to me what's so bad about this? Not a rhetorical question. I thought dumping Carroll and Damp would be a good thing.

Now, maybe fans wanted more, but IIRC the Jefferson deal would have sent something like two first-round picks as well. And he's had some major durability issues.

Thanks in advance.
Ags2012
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Because when comparing it to Al Jefferson it's hard to justify.

Jefferson is younger, has better numbers and is simply a better player. 17/9 vs 6/6 are totally different tiers.

Chandler has had similar durability issues. He has an extremely raw skill set, even after being in the league for 9 years.

Dallas fans were expecting something from the DUST chip, not a simple salary dump. The only hope left is that we deal his expiring contract.
rhutton125
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Who's expiring contract? Chandler's?

I really need to learn the financial side of this stuff. Hahah.

What if the Mavs also sign Al Harrington? 17 ppg, 6 rebounds.
PennisTheMenace
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quote:
a player who's only skill set is being tall and athletic.


wait, what?

Haywood =/= athletic

you mean you had dampier and are trading him for a similarly limited player, right?
Guitarsoup
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Chandler's only skill is being athletic and tall. But thats when he is not injured.
ATM9000
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quote:
Dallas fans were expecting something from the DUST chip, not a simple salary dump. The only hope left is that we deal his expiring contract.


That's your fault then. With so many teams as far under the cap as they are and basically all of the huge free agents locked up, the DUST contract is pretty worthless... especially if you aren't willing to include prospects and picks.
jakester03
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AG
Now they are going after Al Harrington to fill in that backup PF role. Ugh. The knucklehead factor is high with that guy. If we were going that route I would have rather tried to pry Stephen Jackson and plugged him into the starting 2 guard spot.
keithd03
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You are only going to hear the pros of Jefferson and hte cons of Chandler on here.

Neither of these guys will put the Mavs in the Finals. Jefferson is the better player, but he plays the same position as our best player, doesn't play defense, and has 3 years left on his deal vs 1 for Chandler.

It sounds like the Mavs are really trying to be more financially responsible. I believe they now have around $20 million coming off the books next year.

And both players have played in the same number of games the last 6 years.
coastalAg
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AG
To say Jefferson and Dirk play the same position is misleading.

They have completely different games and could easily play next to each other. Bring Haywood off the bench.
coop214
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Jefferson doesn't play D and also doesn't want to come to Dallas to be a backup. I like the trade, we get rid of two worthless players in Carroll and Dampier.
Guitarsoup
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quote:
To say Jefferson and Dirk play the same position is misleading.


It isn't misleading, it is outright wrong.

Jefferson plays in the paint. Dirk plays on the perimeter. Historically, a player that plays in the paint works well with a player that works on the perimeter.

Magic/Kareem
Clyde/Hakeem
Penny/Shaq
Kobe/Shaq
Wade/Shaq
Parker/Duncan
Ginobili/Duncan
Kobe/Gasol
DrJ/Moses
Bird/McHale
Judge
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Those are all terrible comparisons, except maybe Bird and McHale, for obvious reasons.

This trade isn't as bad as it's being made out to be. It's just not that great. It's not the home run we had hoped for.

I would have liked Al Jefferson. Bring Haywood off the bench and slide Big Al to the 4 while Dirk rests.

Oh well. As keith said, neither Al nor Tyson was/is going to make us a contender.
keithd03
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So you want a 6-10 player to protect the paint? I'm sure Bynum/Gasol, Duncan, Aldridge/Oden, Yao, and the rest of the big men in the league would be really scared of that lineup.
Judge
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Height isn't everything. There's a reason the Chuckwagon is a C and listed at 6'6"

Is it ideal? No. He's not a great defender. But the threat of Dirk's midrange game and Al's post play would certainly make Bynum/Gasol, Aldridge/Oden, Yao, et al spend quite a bit of energy defensively. And then Haywood comes fresh off the bench as a defensive presence.
keithd03
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I agree you can be small and still defend at the center position. However, Jefferson is short for a center and is not a strong defender.

Is Jefferson known for being a good passer in the paint and out of double teams?
SuperAg05
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quote:

Is Jefferson known for being a good passer in the paint and out of double teams?


No.

Al Jefferson is Zach Randolph Version 2.0
ATM9000
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quote:
Is it ideal? No. He's not a great defender. But the threat of Dirk's midrange game and Al's post play would certainly make Bynum/Gasol, Aldridge/Oden, Yao, et al spend quite a bit of energy defensively. And then Haywood comes fresh off the bench as a defensive presence.


This. A Mavs fan that seems to get it. The problem with the Mavs has continued to be that they are a jump shooting team. Works in the regular season well, but not in the playoffs where the games are more of a grind. Just having a presence down low to grind away at the opposing low post defense would do wonders for the Mavs.

I've said it many times on here since the Spurs series... Duncan, at probably an older 34 with the playoff games he's played being able to play 37 MPG of relatively effective and good basketball is just not acceptable. The Mavs are going to continue to get run in the playoffs if they keep ignoring their low post offense... which they seem hell bent on doing.

You can bring in Roddy and Caron Butler and whoever else is known as more of a slasher but they just won't be that effective if they have to do it against posts who aren't worn down.

[This message has been edited by ATM9000 (edited 7/13/2010 3:50p).]
MassAggie97
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AG
Personally I think Chandler is quite an upgrade from Damp, if he can stay healthy.
keithd03
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I agree, but if you are paying that much money, you would like to get a low post presence on both sides of the ball.

J.P. 03
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The only other positive I see for the Mavs is that if the Miami Thrice experiment fails miserably and one of them demands to be traded, Dallas will be sitting pretty at the trade deadline with a boatload of expiring contracts.

I realize there's only a .0001% chance of this happening, but it's at least worth tossing the idea out there.
funky07time
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I think Chandler's injury concerns are slightly overblown. Yeah, he missed a lot of time that last 2 years, but the 4 seasons prior to that he missed 17 games total. We shall see.

Now, if we land Harrington, the roster looks like:

Starters
Haywood
Dirk
Marion
Butler
Kidd

Bench
Chandler
Harrington
Terry
Beaubois
Barea

Mahinmi, D. Jones, Ajinca...

I'd feel pretty good about that.

jakester03
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AG
As it stands now you'd prob go:

Kidd/Barea
Roddy/Terry/DoJo
Butler/Marion
Dirk/Harrington
Haywood/Chandler

or

Kidd/Roddy
Butler/Terry
Marion/Stevenson
Dirk/Harrington
Haywood/Chandler

Hello there, first round exit. Nice to see you again.
Guitarsoup
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quote:
Those are all terrible comparisons, except maybe Bird and McHale, for obvious reasons.

As stated, they aren't comparisons. They are examples. Rarely if ever does any team win without a strong paint presence.

The obvious outlier is the Bulls, however, Jordan got all his points by slashing or posting up. They always did good in the paint, and obviously had serviceable players that played in the paint. (Grant was an all-star, wasn't he?)

Besides being a poor-man's Bird, who does Dirk really compare to? Ever in NBA history?

There is one thing that Dallas has lacked every single year of the past decade when they have been a playoff team. That is a player that can grind out the tough points in the paint. Year after year, they have been frustrated in the playoffs when the refs let more things go and they revert to jump shooting and it kills them.

Maybe Cuban thinks he can trade Chandler before the deadline.

Maybe Cuban knows (not maybe, he does) more about the lockout and the future restrictions.

quote:
So you want a 6-10 player to protect the paint?

It is a hell of a lot better than what Dallas has had every single year of their entire existence.

quote:
I'm sure Bynum/Gasol, Duncan, Aldridge/Oden, Yao, and the rest of the big men in the league would be really scared of that lineup.


What is harder to guard? Jefferson/Dirk or Chandler/Dirk? Haywood/Dirk?

You can let Haywood or Chandler alone to double away. Or you can play zone to keep Dallas from hurting your with their 12 SFs. But you have to man up on Jefferson.

No one is worried about 6/6 Chandler or 9/9 Haywood, but you can believe people are planning around a 20/11 Jefferson kicking out to Dirk or to a slashing Kidd, Terry or Butler.

quote:
This trade isn't as bad as it's being made out to be. It's just not that great. It's not the home run we had hoped for.


It isn't bad. Chandler has some upside. Maybe Kidd can find him for a few oops. But you passed on a homerun for a sacrifice.

You save a little cash now and make yourself more flexible in the future.

quote:
Height isn't everything. There's a reason the Chuckwagon is a C and listed at 6'6"

Bingo. Or that Barkley led the league in rebounds at 6.5ish.

quote:
However, Jefferson is short for a center and is not a strong defender.


6'10 isn't really all that short for the position. He also has a 7'3" wingspan and a standing reach of 9'2. Same standing reach as TheMarcus.

DeJuan Blair is 6'5 and plays post. Chuck Wagon holds his own.

quote:
Is it ideal? No. He's not a great defender. But the threat of Dirk's midrange game and Al's post play would certainly make Bynum/Gasol, Aldridge/Oden, Yao, et al spend quite a bit of energy defensively. And then Haywood comes fresh off the bench as a defensive presence.

Exactly. You have to make them work.

When Kobe played the Spurs, he always worked on offense, and sat and relaxed on D, because Bowen sat in the corner.

Same thing with Hakeem in 95. Robinson had to work on offense through the double teams, then had to single-cover Hakeem on defense. No one could have done that. Hakeem let Chucky Brown take the D and relaxed on Rodman, then brought the double team if it came to his side.

If you make those other posts work on both ends of the court, you can wear them out.

I don't see how this isn't plainly obvious to everyone.

quote:
This. A Mavs fan that seems to get it. The problem with the Mavs has continued to be that they are a jump shooting team. Works in the regular season well, but not in the playoffs where the games are more of a grind. Just having a presence down low to grind away at the opposing low post defense would do wonders for the Mavs.

That and the fact that the refs don't respect jump shooting and wont give you the same calls for it in the post season as they do in the regular season. They reward posting up and driving the lane. Two things Dallas hasn't done exceptionally well. Especially when things get tough.

You need to be able to draw fouls and get hard baskets. It will never happen when you rely on your midrange game and your threes.


This isn't a bad move by any means. It just isn't near the hit that Al Jefferson would be. He filled a long-standing need of the Mavs, but they didn't do it because they wanted to save the cap space.


quote:
I agree, but if you are paying that much money, you would like to get a low post presence on both sides of the ball.

So instead of upgrading, you make a lateral move? I agree, it would be nice if he was a great defender. But it isn't like this Mavs team is really built for defense. There is no stopper on here. You have Kidd, Dirk and Terry who are all various forms of weak at defense.

This is a move designed to prop the window open while they try to make another deal next year or land a big name FA. Guess what? You aren't getting Parker or Melo.
Guitarsoup
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AG
I like that backing up Chandler is the homeless man's slave in Ian Mahinmi.
rhutton125
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Would Jefferson have been worth two future 1st-round picks?

(Or maybe "conditional" picks, whatever that means)
Guitarsoup
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Bottom 10 picks in the draft generally aren't worth a whole lot. There are usually a couple teams willing to sell them for 2-3mm each. They've gone as low as 1.5mm.
BMEDAggie11
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Guitarsoup has literally never been this happy in his life
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