let's take a few steps back from the carnage that is this board lately and talk some basketball.

i heard a couple of announcers arguing the legitimacy of a rule today, and i want to see what others think of the rule. (and no, this wasn't during the spurs game, so i haven't taken a side to it)

so, player A is standing on the three point line, and he isn't dribbling. player B has one hand up and the other hand to the side in a defensive position. player A proceeds to throw his arms into the defenders outstretched arm, jumps, flails, and throws the ball in the direction of the basket. player B has not left his feet, has not leaned forward towards the shooter, and has not moved his arms.

now, i understand the refs have to call this, because that is the way the rules is written. i don't blame them. but, would you call this smart basketball or would you say this is one of those rules that needs to be done away with, both for the integrity and the length of the game.

i didn't see the play you are referring to, so i'm guessing you mean the defenders hand is not only up, but also out pointed toward the offensive guy...if that is the case, it should be a foul.

The only time that is not a foul is when the defender's arm is straight up above his shoulder, at least in my book.

Duncan has made a career out of baiting people into this type of foul. He doesn't do it quite as often nowadays.

I hate that rule.

nope, i made it clear as can be. one hand up in the air to stop a lob pass, and the other hand to the side to stop an inside pass.

If it's the kinda rule I'm thinking of, it's exactly what happened between Jarrett Jack and Jason Kidd when Dallas lost to NO a few weeks ago. Jarrett Jack just flailed his arms into Jason Kidd's outreached arm and got three free throws.

Personally I think it's bush league but I can see why professionals would exploit it.

I'm just trying to imagine what people would say if you tried that at the gym. The brothers would laugh you out of the building.

they should change the rule. if the offensive player initiates the contact it should either be offensive or no call (with my preference being no call)

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Personally I think it's bush league but I can see why professionals would exploit it.

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this is exactly what i'm thinking. i'm actually hoping it gets so bad the nba has no choice but to change the rule.

this reminds me of the reggie miller kick out your leg rule that was put into effect.

it could happen.

and before some jackass jumps on here and gets **** mixed up, i'm not talking about a pump fake where you get your defender in the air.

i love nothing more than a good ball fake that leads to an awkward shot and a foul. if you can get your defender to leave his feet, you deserve the free throws, unless you are throwing the ball up from half court.

I belive JVG was talking about it today, and I agree that it is a B.S. rule that needs to be changed. Durant will get to the line 1-4 times a game from the move (clearly not the only one to use this move).

I'm also not a fan of the pump fake, defender flys by on side, offensive player jumps to side, initiates the contact and gets the call.

Perhaps it is the inconsistent interpretation of these rules that bothers me.

Manu does a variation where if you reach into his space, he will initiate contact and draw the foul. I think that's kind of cheap, but at least Manu is defending his space. It's not as bad as Paul Pierce, who will jump into a stationary defender and get the foul call the majority of the time.

That shouldn't be a foul because the defender owns the space he is occupying. It's like a charge; the defensive player doesn't have to get out of the offensive player's way.

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It's like a charge; the defensive player doesn't have to get out of the offensive player's way.

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that's my favorite argument so far.

if you know the rule is in place, then you have to account for it.

if it happens and you get called for a foul it is your own fault.

the "rip" move made famous by Durant is the perimeter equivalent to the calling a foul on a post defender who has his arms straight up in the air.

if the NBA outlaws the "rip" move, they need to fix the calls on post defenders who have their arms straight up, and perimeter defenders who leave their feet, but then get jumped into. i'm not sure the NBA refs understand that the defensive player has just as much right to occupy a previously unoccupied space as the offensive player does.

It goes back to refs being forced to make a call anytime there is contact or someone falls down. Sometimes the best call is to swallow your whistle.

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and perimeter defenders who leave their feet, but then get jumped into.

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i disagree with this part. if you get your defender in the air, you earned it. defenders shouldn't be jumping forward to block shots. if they jump straight up in the air, that would be crap.

Frequently the offensive player jumps sideways into the closeout. I think those should be no-calls since both players are moving.

This and the "continuation" rule bother me. It's as if the referees don't know that you can foul before a shot attempt.

Somebody was watching the Laker-Hornet game I see. Chris Paul was doing this several times throughout which prompted the discussion.

I also noticed a crackdown on flopping in this game. On the whole, it was good a thing and cleaned up the fake charges a lot (though they may have taken it a touch too far at least once; Derek Fisher, of all people, actually drew one legit charge they called a flop; his rep obviously earned him the block instead of the charge).

[This message has been edited by Look Out Below (edited 4/18/2011 2:55p).]

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if you get your defender in the air, you earned it.

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earned what?

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earned what?

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earned the right to lean in and draw the foul. what the **** else would i mean?

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I'm just trying to imagine what people would say if you tried that at the gym. The brothers would laugh you out of the building.

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the same can be said for taking a charge. should we outlaw that too?

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earned the right to lean in and draw the foul. what the **** else would i mean?

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no need for hostility. just asking a simple question.

i'm not sure the offensive player ever has the "right" to jump into the defender and draw foul. the rules on NBA.com aren't exactly clear (which may explain why everyone gets so frustrated by inconsistant reffing), but it appears that an offensive player has the "right" to draw a foul if a defender leaves his feet and runs into the ball-handler. but the defender is afforded the same "right" to occupy any space, as long as he gets there first.

if a shooter ball-fakes and gets the defender to leave his feet, and the defender's momentum forces him to contact the shooter, that's completely legitimate. but if the defender leaves his feet and the shooter jumps into the defender in an unnatural move, i don't think the defender should be called for a foul. based on your original post, i figure you would agree. but you appear to have different standards based on your personal opinion on the play.

[This message has been edited by wacarnolds (edited 4/18/2011 8:39p).]

my bad, wac. i thought you were being a dewshnozzle. lots of dillholes roaming this sacred boards.

i think it's perfectly fine if a shooter gets the defender jumps forward in the air and the shooter leans in for the foul. actively jumping into an awkward position just to draw contact is stupid no matter what the circumstance.

[This message has been edited by Obi Wan Ginobili (edited 4/18/2011 8:48p).]

it's all good.

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actively jumping into an awkward position just to draw contact is stupid no matter what the circumstance.

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agree completely

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i think it's perfectly fine if a shooter gets the defender jumps forward in the air and the shooter leans in for the foul.

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it would be interesting to get the official understanding on this, cause i'm not entirely sure it's legitimate to jump into defender no matter the circumstance. but i'm fine with it being called either way.


[This message has been edited by wacarnolds (edited 4/18/2011 8:59p).]

It's lazy defense that gets called for those fouls, so I say keep it in. You should have your hand in the offensive players face, not in his chest/stomach. If your hand is above their shoulders, you can either stick your arms straight up or contest by putting a hand in the shooters face. Also, it shouldn't make a difference where the foul is. If you take out the rule at the perimeter, you have to take it out down low. Duncan will do that move down low whenever he gets a chance, and will probably do it to slow the game down now that it's the playoffs.