He's a top 3 point guard, right?

Here's his resume...

Rookie of the Year
1995

All-NBA 1st Team
2004, 2002, 2001, 2000, 1999

All-NBA 2nd Team
2003

All-Rookie 1st Team
1995

All-Defensive 1st Team
2006, 2002, 2001, 1999

All-Defensive 2nd Team
2007, 2005, 2004, 2003, 2000

10-time All-Star

2-time Olympic gold medalist

3rd all-time in 3PT made
3rd all-time in steals
2nd all-time in assists

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Averages 13/9/6 over his career.


Question 1: Where does Kidd rank among the PGs, all-time?

Question 2: Where does Kidd rank among all players, all-time?

I rank Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas and John Stockton ahead of him at the point. Top 25-35 player all-time.

I think he should've won Co-MVP with Duncan 2001-02. Second best defensive point guard ever behind Gary Payton.

I really hate "all time" arguments because I feel the game should be broken up into eras. I'd say of my lifetime (1979 and on), Nash, Kidd and Stockon are all 3 interchangable as the greatest PG

Forgot about Magic and Zeke too

[This message has been edited by The Padz (edited 5/24/2011 12:47p).]

right off the bat, i think he has to be slotted behind magic and isiah.

probably in the group with nash, stockton, oscar robertson.

paul will likely be better at the end of his career.

top-5 all time sounds good.

Just throwing names out there:

Oscar Robertson
Jason Kidd
Magic Johnson
Isiah Thomas
John Stockton
Gary Payton
Steve Nash
Bob Cousey

I thought Oscar Robertson was more of a combo guard. Basically, Dwyane Wade with better passing skills.

he averaged 10apg for his career (on top of 26ppg and 8rpg)

Maybe so. None of us are really old enough to remember. But he averaged 26/10/8 for his career. If you average 9.5 assists for your career (he topped 11apg 4 times) you are probably a PG. Looking at some of his best seasons, he would have over 800 assists and no one else on the team had over 300.

I was ready to proclaim Kidd in the top 3 PGs of all time, but holy crap Magic was awesome. He was catching the hivvy about the time I started following the NBA but his combination of assists and scoring stats are phenomenal. His last full year - only 31 years old - he averaged 12.5 assists, 19.4 points, and 7 rebounds. Who knows what could have been?

I'm not nearly old enough to know the Big O or Cousy, so my top PGs:

1 - Magic
2 - Stockton/Isaiah
4 - Kidd

To make football comparison,
Magic = Jim Brown,
Stockton/Isaiah = Barry Sanders,
Kidd = Emmit.

[This message has been edited by DCC99 (edited 5/24/2011 1:32p).]

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I rank Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas and John Stockton ahead of him at the point. Top 25-35 player all-time.

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I can get behind this opinion.

quote:

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To make football comparison,
Magic = Jim Brown,
Stockton/Isaiah = Barry Sanders,
Kidd = Emmit.

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can we all pretend we didn't see this? we don't need cowboys fans derailing this thread to defend emmitt's honor

I gotta put him behind Oscar Robertson, too. He averaged 31p/13r/11a.

When ESPN rated all the positions in 2006, this is what they said about the Big O:

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Teams: Cincinnati Royals (1961-70), Milwaukee Bucks (1970-74)

Titles: 1 (1971)

Honors: 12-time All-Star, 1961 ROY, 1964 MVP, Hall of Fame

The player: The gold standard, two decades ahead of his time.

Oscar was one of the smartest players ever. There has never been a better post-up guard.

We hear about "The Big O" averaging a triple-double for one season (1961-62), but he actually averaged a triple-double over the first five seasons of his career (1960-65) when the games are strung together. In those 384 games, he averaged an astounding 30.3 points, 10.6 assists and 10.4 rebounds.

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All experts but two voted for Magic first as best PG ever. Oscar got those two votes (John Hollinger and Chris Sheridan.) Only one person voted Oscar 3rd (John Carroll). Everyone else voted him second.

I'm not sure Stockton and Isiah did much in the last half decade to propel themselves past the Big O.

I think I would go:
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4. Stockton
5. Kidd


And Chris Paul may earn his way on there.

quote:

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Just throwing names out there:

Oscar Robertson
Jason Kidd
Magic Johnson
Isiah Thomas
John Stockton
Gary Payton
Steve Nash
Bob Cousey

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i'd add walt frazier and tiny archibald to the list of contenders

Kidd is no where near the Top 50 players all-time because there are hundreds of players with rings ahead of him...

[This message has been edited by BillOnCapitolHill (edited 5/24/2011 1:56p).]

Jackie -

I looked at Tiny - he is the only person to lead the league in points and assists in the same season, but I don't know that he played at that level for long enough.

Fraizer seemed to be more of a 20/6 guy. Maybe he was the real combo guard. Again, I don't really know, but he only broke 8APG once in his career.

quote:

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Kidd is no where near the Top 50 players all-time because there are hundreds of players with rings ahead of him...

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like john stockton?

quote:

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I looked at Tiny - he is the only person to lead the league in points and assists in the same season, but I don't know that he played at that level for long enough.

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fair point. but i think tiny paved the way for some of the score-first PGs we see today. plus he gets points in my book for being a little guy who wasn't afraid to penetrate back in the days when big men would lay you out.

quote:

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Fraizer seemed to be more of a 20/6 guy. Maybe he was the real combo guard. Again, I don't really know, but he only broke 8APG once in his career.

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i had a basketball coach back who would always argue with us that walt was a better defender than payton (who we all thought was the best). i haven't seen much footage of him, but that always stuck with me, since it was coming from a basketball guy who had seen both play (though my coach was from NY and probably biased)

and don't forget walt's role in the famous willis reed game. he went for 36pts, 19 assists and like 5 steals to beat the lakers for his first of two titles.

again, not saying where they rank on the list, just adding them to yours for a nice, round 10

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Kidd is no where near the Top 50 players all-time because there are hundreds of players with rings ahead of him...

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A ring makes a player better? So you're telling me that some bench rider for some random Bulls team back in the day is better than a player like Barkley? Or Dirk?

Longevity has to have a lot to do with it. Look at Simmons arguement of would you rather have 9 transparent years of Bird or 13+ years of Dirk?


It's hard for me to put Nash in there because it took him so long to get to his elite level. Dirk's rookie year blew, but he was a big contributor much quicker.

I put Kidd behind Magic. I think Kidd, Thomas and Stockton are close, but probably give the edge to Kidd because of defense.

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Longevity has to have a lot to do with it. Look at Simmons arguement of would you rather have 9 transparent years of Bird or 13+ years of Dirk?

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Transcendent. The word you were looking for was transcendent.

I mean, I know Larry Legend was pretty pasty, but see-through? That's just mean.

Personally I probably rank them Magic, then Stockton, then Thomas and Kidd even. If Kidd gets a ring before he's done, he slides in easily at #3.

I see oscar robertson as more of a 2 guard than a point, but you could make the case he was both, in which he would go up to the top of this list with magic.

Damn you people are easy to troll.

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put Kidd behind Magic. I think Kidd, Thomas and Stockton are close, but probably give the edge to Kidd because of defense.

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Why is Kidd better than them defensiviely?

Why should you even have an opinion? You are nothing but a troll and a weak one at that.

Stockton will hold the steals record for a long time.....

MJ is # 2 (700 behind). JS had 3,200 total. Jason Kidd is #3 at 800 behind. He has a shot at #2 but no chance at #1.

Stockton will also hold the assist record for a long time. He is 4,000 above #2 (Jason Kidd) (Total of 15,000) and his # per game just behind Magic.

[This message has been edited by BBDP (edited 5/25/2011 6:01p).]

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Why is Kidd better than them defensiviely?

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You really are an idiot.

Kidd is one of best defenders of all-time by anybody's standards. He grabs ways more rebounds. And he's one of best steal men in NBA history. Plus he could just shut down the opponent. He's 38 years old and giving Kevin Durant a tough time.

Thomas was good defender. Nothing special.

Stockton was good defensive player with great hands. But he wasn't particularly tall or quick. You could post him up and quick guards could get him, especially as he aged.

Kidd had no weakness defensively. He's tall so he couldn't be posted up. He was fast as anybody so quick guys didn't trouble him. And his basketball IQ is incredible. (same with Thomas and Stockton)

NVM, the post was clarified


[This message has been edited by BillOnCapitolHill (edited 5/25/2011 6:11p).]