Why did I waste all that time arguing for scoring stats and PER and TS% and Win Shares when arguing for Dirk's place with the all-time greats? It's all about hardware.

List of every player that has won both an MVP and a Finals MVP:
Dirk Nowitzki
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Moses Malone
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton
Willis Reed
Wilt Chamberlain

More older players with an MVP and a title, since the Finals MVP started in 1969:
Bill Russell
Bob Pettit
Bob Cousy

Now let's filter that list to include only players with sustained greatness over many years, which gets rid of outliers like Walton and Unseld.

List of every player with at least 10 All-NBA selections, an MVP and a Finals MVP (or a title before 1969):
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bill Russell
Bob Pettit
Bob Cousy
Dirk Nowitzki
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlain

That's a nice top 13 list. So Dirk is at least a top 20 player of all time right now, and you can't assume he won't add some more hardware. Show me the trophies. Scoreboard.


/thread

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 6/15/2011 12:07a).]

Can't argue with facts.

This playoff run cemented him in the top-20. His stats and accomplishments now are more than enough to get him there alone, but the fact that he literally changed the game and the perception of the power forward position really locks him in.

The only cloud over his career is his defense, or lack thereof. If he were half the defender Duncan was in his prime we'd be talking about top-10 all-time and the mavs would probably have two more rings.

Why exclude Unseld? He's a 6' 7" center that won league MVP and rookie of the year ('69), then didn't win a NBA Championship and Finals MVP until '78. In between he was a 5 time all star and led the Bullets to 3 other Finals.

Unseld is an all-time great but only made 1 all-NBA team so he can't be on the list.

I don't think Dirk was a ten time all-NBA selection. Not first team, at least. Then again, the PF position was very talented over the last ten years, with KG and Tim Duncan probably getting those first team selections. Are you referring to All-Star selections?

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Are you referring to All-Star selections?

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I think he's referring to being named either NBA 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team...

If you are going to compare modern players vs. guys like Unseld, you are going to have to modify your All-NBA criteria.

Dirk made the 3rd team All-NBA twice, but in Unseld's time there was no 3rd team--only 1st and 2nd. For all we know, he could have made 3rd team every year of his career.

I always think it's idiotic to compare players whose rookie years are separated by over a decade or more. The game changes too much during that time for any kind of legitimate comparison. Just gives us internet morans something to argue about.

I remember being so pissed one year when Dirk got put on the 3rd team behind Peja (who was on the 2nd team).

^Peja was beasting that year.

Peja's defense makes Dirk look like Bruce Bowen.

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Dirk made the 3rd team All-NBA twice, but in Unseld's time there was no 3rd team--only 1st and 2nd. For all we know, he could have made 3rd team every year of his career.

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There were 2 teams because there were only like 12 teams in the NBA. And many of the best players were in the ABA in the 70s so you actually had a better chance to make an all league team. Not sure what point you're making. Do you want to set up a ratio multiplier that measures how difficult it is to be named to an all-NBA team based on the number of slots and franchises? Is that really going to change things?

Fair enough, I'll concede that, I guess.

I thought about it and I'm going to argue with myself now. It IS somewhat valid to say that only having 2 all-NBA teams in the old days makes it unfair. There were fewer teams back then, but those trams were stacked with the best players. Adding more teams just adds a bunch of spare players that wouldn't compete for a spot anyway. In the 70s you could have a 3 team league but Unseld still wouldn't make 2nd team all-NBA if Kareem and McAdoo were on the other 2 teams.

So in order to compare apples to apples I'll adjust the list to only account for selections to 1st and 2nd All-NBA teams. That knocks out Dirk and Hakeem, who both fall to 9 total selections. Dirk still has some work to do.

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Fair enough, I'll concede that, I guess.

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Holy ish, has this phrase ever been typed...EVER, in the history of TexAgs??? For that matter, in the history of internet e-fights??????

I'm stunned.

There were more than 12 teams during ABA time period.

The math is pretty simple.

There were around 20 teams back then. So, there were 100 starters in the NBA. They had 1st and 2nd team, so 10 guys made the All-NBA team. That means roughly, that top 10% of players made the All-NBA team.

There are 30 teams now, for 150 starters. And 15 guys make the All-NBA teams. Again, the top 10% of players make the All-NBA team.

That's got some Kentucky windage, but it's solid. For generations, the formula was easy. If you were a top 10% player, you made the All-NBA team.

mike and mike just bestowed another honor on dirk...

he has now surpassed mark madsen as the worst performance at a celebratory parade in league history.

Truth

Well either way you dice it Dirk is a badass basketball player and is the best player on the best team in the world right now!

What happens if Dirk plays at the level for another 3-5 years? What if he finishes with over 30,000 points (only 4 players have done this)? I know after 13 years it's easy to say that he's not one of the top 10, and I'm not arguing he is/should be/will be, but if he sustains his level of play for 3-5 years, and plays a few more years after that at a level similar to his second year in the league (17-18 points as a solid "Robin" where does that put his legacy?

in the since magic & bird era, I put him in the 2nd tier of players (which is a tiny group)

tier one being Magic, Bird, MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan & Olajuwon.

tier two: Dirk, Wade, potentially Isiah?

tier three being guys like Ewing, Barkley, Malone that never won a title.

no lebron?

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What happens if Dirk plays at the level for another 3-5 years? What if he finishes with over 30,000 points (only 4 players have done this)?

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Kobe will also be above him.

Dirks game may last 5 more years above 20 points per game pending what the Mavs bring in. He could easily play longer.... since he does not use athleticism to score and at a solid 7', should be able to play Defense at a minimum level.