He's already the best 4 ever

Does winning championships as a key player so many years apart cement him in top 10 greatest players ever? Possibly higher?

He already is top 10. Maybe moves him up higher but not much.

If Duncan quit today he'd already be a top-10 player in my book. I can't think of 10 guys I'd put ahead of him. Winning a 5th championship gets him closer to the top 5. Right now I've got it like this:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Oscar
5. Shaq
6. Russell
7. Duncan
8. Kareem
9. Bird
10. Olajuwon

If he gets a 5th one this year I would definitely move him past russell and strongly consider moving him past Shaq. He's a great player who's had a great career.

in no order

jordan
wilt
kareem
shaq
kobe
magic
bird
russell

those 8 i think are better than duncan all time after that i dont know of any sure fire candidates that he would be behind. although it is hard for me to judge all time greatness since my basketball watching day started in the late 80's.

I love TD but you can't put him ahead of Russell, Kareem, or Shaq

quote:

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in no order

jordan
wilt
kareem
shaq
kobe
magic
bird
russell

those 8 i think are better than duncan all time after that i dont know of any sure fire candidates that he would be behind. although it is hard for me to judge all time greatness since my basketball watching day started in the late 80's.

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TD is better then Kobe and Bird.

Aren't we getting a little ahead of ourselves with all the "championship" talk at this point?

a) the Spurs haven't realy played anyone yet, and
b) they are a single Duncan/Parker injury away from being very, very beatable.

Nothing. His legacy was cemented in 2009. Best power ever and a top 10 player all-time.

quote:

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Aren't we getting a little ahead of ourselves with all the "championship" talk at this point?

a) the Spurs haven't realy played anyone yet, and
b) they are a single Duncan/Parker injury away from being very, very beatable.

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it's a discussion board, not espn or the spurs front office. if our opinions held any weight, these topics would be retarded. unless you believe in jinxes and buying people cokes, lighten up and join in.

The difficult thing about comparing TD to some of the others is that TD has been consistently good for so long. For instance, IMO Hakeem at his peak was better than Duncan at his peak; however, Duncan is better overall because he produced at a high level for a longer period.

quote:

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The difficult thing about comparing TD to some of the others is that TD has been consistently good for so long. For instance, IMO Hakeem at his peak was better than Duncan at his peak; however, Duncan is better overall because he produced at a high level for a longer period.

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I think this is true for a lot of discussions in player rankings, and longevity (and availability) isn't given enough weight in these types of discussions.

I would put Duncan ahead of Shaq, especially if he gets a ring this year. Shaq had a lot of down years and Duncan held his own against him when both were still in their primes in the late 90's and early '00s. Duncan has been far more consistent and a better leader.

The consistent excellence of the Duncan led Spurs for such a long period is something the NBA hasn't really seen since the Celtics in the '60s, but that was in a league that was much, much smaller and didn't have FA.

quote:

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The consistent excellence of the Duncan led Spurs for such a long period is something the NBA hasn't really seen since the Celtics in the '60s

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I was thinking about this last night. With this series against the Clippers, Duncan's Spurs have played every other WC team in the playoffs, other than Houston and GSW, two teams which have not been particularly good in that span. If you add in the Robinson era, the Spurs have played every single team in the western conference at least once in the playoffs.

Think about how amazing that is.

He's already solidly top 10, and the starting 4 on the all-time NBA team. But he's a notch below the greatest post players (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, maybe Hakeem, maybe Shaq). Right now the Duncan dynasty ends in 2007 (9 seasons, 4 Finals, 4 Titles). A win this year while keeping his impact high extends the dynasty another 5+ years, which vaults him right into the Russell/Kareem discussion of extended greatness/winning.

Dirk has played every WC team except the Clippers. Scoreboard

I don't know where Duncan fall in the overall ranking, but is he has to be very high up there. He has had the benefit of playing for the best run organization in all of sports over the last 20 years.

Shaq is the only one I would put ahead of Duncan, statistically. Maybe Wilt, but Wilt was not nearly as good in the playoffs as he was regular season

Russell, and Kareem probably make it there due to rings as well. Hakeem is clearly well behind Duncan.

[This message has been edited by claym711 (edited 5/18/2012 10:12a).]

For Duncan to go ahead of Shaq, he needs to play more years than him and at this level (probably for another 5 years).

Highest career PER's:

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.24
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.70
7. Chris Paul 25.44
8. Bob Pettit* 25.35
9. Tim Duncan 24.75
10. Neil Johnston* 24.63
11. Charles Barkley* 24.63
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
13. Magic Johnson* 24.11
14. Karl Malone* 23.90
15. Dirk Nowitzki 23.63
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
17. Larry Bird* 23.50
18. Kobe Bryant 23.44
19. Kevin Garnett 23.32
20. Oscar Robertson* 23.17
21. Yao Ming 23.02
22. Jerry West* 22.90
23. Elgin Baylor* 22.70
24. Dwight Howard 22.49
25. Moses Malone* 22.31
26. Amare Stoudemire 22.24
27. Tracy McGrady 22.13
28. Julius Erving* 21.97
29. Dolph Schayes* 21.92
30. Pau Gasol 21.92
31. John Stockton* 21.83
32. Manu Ginobili 21.77
33. George Gervin* 21.74
34. Bob Lanier* 21.69
35. Clyde Lovellette* 21.64
36. Dominique Wilkins* 21.56
37. Adrian Dantley* 21.51
38. Harry Gallatin* 21.43
39. Elton Brand 21.30
40. Alonzo Mourning 21.24
41. Clyde Drexler* 21.07
42. Patrick Ewing* 21.01
43. Dan Issel* 20.99
44. Chris Webber 20.94
45. Allen Iverson 20.92
46. Chris Bosh 20.85
47. John Drew 20.74
48. Bob McAdoo* 20.73
49. Kevin Johnson 20.70
50. Paul Pierce 20.65

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 5/18/2012 10:20a).]

quote:

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10. Neil Johnston* 24.63

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Since I hadn't heard of this guy...from Wikipedia:

Known as an "enforcer", Johnson is remembered in the ABA oral history book Loose Balls for punching Warren Jabali in a game between the Virginia Squires and Denver Rockets. Referee John Vanak called the punch "the most devasating punch [he'd] ever seen on the court". According to Vanak, Jabali was one of the most physical players in the ABA, and had been shoving Johnson and his teammates throughout the game until Johnson retaliated. Dave Twardzik of the Squires recalled, "It scared the hell out of me, but the guys on my team were loving it because the whole league hated Jabali

From another site:

To say that Neil Johnson was the "free spirit" of the Virginia Squires would be an understatement. Coach Bianchi often called him his "hippie forward" and the manner in which Johnson presented himself....with classic 70's mustache, long hair and muttonchop sideburns made him a favorite of the Squires fans and a target for vocal criticism from spectators on the road. Neil was acquired as a free agent by owner Earl Foreman during the late summer of 1970 and served as a strong and reliable player off the bench for Bianchi for the '70-'71 year. He could intimidate most players and was never one to back down when pressed. His first year with the Squires earned him an ABA All-Star selection while he led the team in field goal percentage. The 1971-'72 season saw Johnson starting at forward opposite a young rookie phenom.....Julius Erving. Neil started strong but an achilles tendon injury sidelined him in November and he remained out for the season. He retired after the 1972-73 season, thus giving Squires fans three great years of rough and tumble basketball. Neil liked the Tidewater area so much, that he decided to stay after his professional career and still resides in Virginia Beach.


http://virginiasquires.homestead.com/FeaturedPlayerBiography.html




[This message has been edited by Iowaggie (edited 5/18/2012 10:29a).]

Duncan is already above Shaq:
Better teammate: Duncan by a large shot. Shaq was unceremoniously dumped from at least 4 of his 6 teams.
Championships: 4 each
Finals MVP: 3 each
MVP: Duncan 2, Shaq 1
All-NBA First Team: Duncan 9, Shaq 8
All Defense First Team: Duncan 8, Shaq 0

Duncan is a better passer and defender by a vastly wide margin.
Shaq was a better scorer, but Duncan was better at virtually every other facet of the game. Both were about even in rebounding.

Shaq was a unique talent and great player but really there is no question with another title that Duncan would surpass him. Shaq was the more dominant offensive player but was no where close to the defensive player that Duncan is and his offensive game wasn't remotely as diverse as Duncan. Shaq was as dominant as anyone with the ball inside of 8 feet of the rim but Duncan can kill you 50 different ways. Both players have 4 titles and 3 Finals MVP's. Duncan has one more MVP but I don't put much stock there as both of them should have 3. Duncan beat Shaq in '99 and '03 while Shaq beat Duncan in '01 (Duncan was injured in '00), '02, and '04 but both players had games they dominated the other. Both of them had a year that they absolutely owned the league (Shaq in '00 and Duncan in '03). Shaq was a far more divisive player having blown up multiple teams in his career. Duncan has 13 AS games and All NBA teams while Shaq has 15, but Duncan has 13 All Defensive Teams to Shaq's 2. Duncan was also 1st Team more often and did it in the greatest era for PF's in NBA history with guys like Malone, KG, and Dirk playing in their primes. Offensive stats favor Shaq but Duncan was never a stats guy, his mantra was he was going to get 20 and 10 almost every game. In the last several years his minutes also have been preserved so much for the playoffs it skews that as well. All you have to do is watch what he is doing right now to appreciate that he absolutely still has it and could put up the numbers but he is solely focused on winning.

In the end unless you put all the weight on scoring and sheer dominant personality and play style I don't see how Shaq is above Duncan.

I won't even argue Hakeem as it isn't remotely close.

Kareem is an interesting one because he had such great scoring numbers and certainly racked up the rings. He was really never the key guy on those Lakers teams though, it was the Magic show.

Right now I think Duncan is about to pass Bird honestly if he hasn't already.

There just aren't many guys with Duncan's resume and especially his sustained success. His worst season with the Spurs they still had a .610 winning percentage. He also still has gas in the tank and it wouldn't surprise me a bit to see him play 2 or 3 more seasons at a high level. The guy is in fantastic shape and has actually lost weight and his game really doesn't rely on athleticism.

quote:

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I won't even argue Hakeem as it isn't remotely close.

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lol.

quote:

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Hakeem at his peak was better than Duncan at his peak; however, Duncan is better overall because he produced at a high level for a longer period.

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I think that is almost undeniably true. Both parts.

[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 5/18/2012 12:09p).]

Duncan is not even close to top 10, and it's debatable whether or not he'll be in the HOF.

/spurshatersandsimpleidiot

My top ten, in order:

10) The Dream or the Admiral - I can't decide.
9) Lebron (That's right. I think he is that good. And he will climb before he is done.)
8) Kareem
7) Timmy
6) Shaq
5) Larry Legend
4) Big O
3) Magic
2) Wilt
1) MJ

quote:

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Duncan was also 1st Team more often and did it in the greatest era for PF's in NBA history with guys like Malone, KG, and Dirk playing in their primes.

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You can have 2 PFs on 1st team all-nba, but not 2 centers. Most of the time Duncan shared 1st team with another PF.

as an unbiased observer(not a fan of the Spurs or any of their rivals) he has been without a doubt my favorite NBA player over the last decade+. I like him a multitude of reasons, but strictly looking at his on the court play, he's a top 10 overall when he retires, especially if he gets another title.

arguing beyond that is tough for me, as it can clearly go one way or the other. As for him/Shaq debate specifically...that's tough. I think if you said you get one year of either in their prime, I'm taking Shaq all day, but if you said you get one guy over an entire career from draft to retirement, I'm taking Duncan without a second thought.

[This message has been edited by Bunk Moreland (edited 5/18/2012 12:51p).]

What Bunk said.

I agree, Bunk.

If I had to choose between 2000 Shaq or 2003 Timmy, I take 2000 Shaq.

But judging as a player, if I had to take 97-12 Duncan or 92-11 Shaq, no question I choose Duncan to anchor my team.

But when judging players, I never see people just taking one year of someone. 77 Walton is a whole lot sexier than Career Walton. 95 Playoffs Hakeem is a whole lot sexier than Career Hakeem.

That said, I would also choose to build a team around Hakeem before I ever considered Shaq. His problems with teammates, ego, lack of discipline, lack or work ethic and all his other issues drop him quite a bit in my book.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 5/18/2012 1:15p).]

IF,

Shaq also got All NBA against some very weak Center competition several of those years by comparison. Ben Wallace and Yao Ming were not exactly KG and Dirk.

I don't get those who are saying that Hakeem didn't sustain his greatness for as long a period as Duncan has. To me, Hakeem's peak was higher and the career sustenance is pretty equal.

Through Hakeem's first 15 years, his worst season was his 14th in which he put up 16/9/3/2/2. That's pretty damn good.

To me, their places on a top 10 list are interchangeable. The rings are obviously in Duncan's favor, but Hakeem's career peaks and the era of his positional competition was better than Duncan's. Again, interchangeable. I laugh when people say it's not even close (from either player's standpoint).

quote:

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Dirk has played every WC team except the Clippers. Scoreboard

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How many EC teams has he played?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Magic Johnson
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Larry Bird
6. Oscar Robinson
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Shaquille O'Neal

quote:

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How many EC teams has he played?

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A much harder team than the Spurs have ever faced in an NBA Finals matchup. Hopefully the spurs actually face some stiff competition in the NBA Finals this year if they make it because they never really have.


[This message has been edited by TheMasterplan (edited 5/18/2012 1:50p).]