...and is Tony Parker one of them? I'm having a hard time keeping him off the list.

1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Cousy
4. Isiah
5. Kidd
6. Frazier
7. Nash
8. Parker
9. Payton
10. Lenny Wilkins

*Didn't include Oscar because I consider him a 2 guard.

He's definitely on the list. I like where you have him. Maybe one more spot up

A couple more big time performances in this years finals with a finals MVP and I think he has the opportunity to be top 5. That's a big "if", however.

Some others in contention: Maravich, Oscar, Moncrief, Dennis Johnson, Kevin Johnson, Mo Cheeks, Chauncey Billups, Chris Paul, Tiny Archibald, Walt Frazier, Jo Jo White

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 6/10/2013 10:35p).]

PGs with MVPs:
Magic 3
Nash 2
Cousy 1
Rose 1

PGs with Finals MVPs:
Magic 3
Billups 1
Dennis Johnson 1
Parker 1
Isiah 1
Jo Jo White 1

PGs in the top 50 for all-time MVP Award shares:
5 Johnson 5.129
17 Oscar 2.479
19 Nash 2.429
27 Paul 1.423
32 Rose 0.981
34 Kidd 0.933
36 Cousy 0.882
39 Payton 0.823
43 Moncrief 0.695


PGs with > 5 All-NBA selections:
Cousy 12
Oscar 11
Stockton 11
Magic 10
Payton 9
Nash 7
Frazier 6
Kidd 6

PGs with > 4 All-defense selections:
Dennis Johnson 9
Kidd 9
Payton 9
Frazier 7
Mookie Blalock 6
Mo Cheeks 5
Moncrief 5
Paul 5
Stockton 5

PGs on this list so far that also led league in assists at least one year:
Nash
Paul
Kidd
Stockton
Isiah
Magic
Oscar
Cousy

PGs on this list so far that also led league in scoring at least one year:
Cousy



So to sum it up, here's the players that appear on the above lists at least 2 times:
Magic
Cousy
Oscar
Stockton
Payton
Nash
Isiah
Kidd
Frazier
Dennis Johnson
Paul
Moncrief

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 6/10/2013 11:10p).]

Moncrief and Dennis Johnson haha. Moncrief averaged 15 and 3 for his career (3 assists, as a PG in a league that played at a much faster pace than today's game, that's not very good) and Johnson wasn't much better. Also, Paul hasn't really accomplished anything yet outside putting up some pretty good stats.

[This message has been edited by Negative Throckmorton (edited 6/10/2013 11:21p).]

The guy who listed Lenny Wilkens is laughing at the accomplishments and awards of Dennis Johnson and Sidney Moncrief, 2 of the best defenders of their era.

What should be changed with the lists that I posted? What additional criteria? Which lists should be expanded? How many lists will it take to get Lenny Wilkens on the board?



EDIT - No wait I checked Wilkens B-R page and his most similar player comp is Jason Terry. Wilkens can stay



[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 6/10/2013 11:32p).]

Does Allen Iverson count as a PG? If so, his MVP, 4x scoring titles, boatload of steals, and solid assists should probably put him in the discussion. Who knows how good he would have been if he had practiced.


Given the dominance of the PG in today's game, it's interesting that there are so few really clear top 10 candidates. Parker has hardly ever made the all-star team, yet when you look at the all-time list it's hard to find 10 guys in the history of the league who were definitely better and more accomplished.

Paul is good but hasn't won anything. Rose is a freak but has played approximately 9 games. Rondo put up a lot of stats but is young and was the 4th wheel when they were good. Deron Williams, see Chris Paul. Chauncey Billups... meh. Steve Nash is definitely top 10 of all time and so is Kidd. Russell Westbrook, see Deron Williams. Curry isn't there yet, but if his ankles hold up we could be looking at one of the all-time great players.

Lenny Wilkens who averaged 17 and 6 and was a 9 time all-star? Also named to the 50th anniversary all-time team (which Johnson and Moncrief were not). And why would I rely on who's on the most lists? You don't even include points, rebounds, assists or championships in your argument.

I was looking at Curry's stats. He could easily be the second member some day (Steve Nash 1x) of the 50-45-90 club, all he's lacking is the FG% (45%). Shoots for volume (NBA record for threes in a season) and accuracy (45.3%).

quote:

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Negative Throckmorton
posted 11:40p, 06/10/13



Lenny Wilkens who averaged 17 and 6 and was a 9 time all-star? Also named to the 50th anniversary all-time team (which Johnson and Moncrief were not). And why would I rely on who's on the most lists? You don't even include points, rebounds, assists or championships in your argument.

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Need to be careful just posting stats when comparing eras - awards are better. Rebounds aren't a PG stat. Listing championships is tough (the Horry conumdrum). The 50th anniversary team is a good list.

Yes, but ignoring all of that is why using your lists as the sole tool to evaluating the best PG is flawed. It completely ignores anyone that might do everything well, but not great. And you could just say top 3 in minutes or scoring on a championship team to avoid having players like Fisher end up on the list.

[This message has been edited by Negative Throckmorton (edited 6/10/2013 11:55p).]

PGs on 50th Anniversary team (1996):
Cousy
Magic
Oscar
Stockton
Archibald
Maravich
Isiah
Wilkens

Wilkens and Archibald led league in assists at least 1 time


All-time assists leaders:
1. John Stockton 15806
2. Jason Kidd 12091
3. Mark Jackson 10334
4. Steve Nash 10249
5. Magic Johnson 10141
6. Oscar Robertson 9887
7. Isiah Thomas 9061
8. Gary Payton 8966
9. Rod Strickland 7987
10. Andre Miller 7956

PGs in the top 100 all-time scoring leaders:
34 Gary Payton 21813
44 John Stockton 19711
56 Isiah Thomas 18822
64 Calvin Murphy 17949
68 Lenny Wilkens 17772
70 Magic Johnson 17707
73 Jason Kidd 17529
79 Jason Terry 17286
80 Steve Nash 17285
87 Bob Cousy 16960
91 Tiny Archibald 16481

PGs with at least 3 championships:
bolded were also listed as an all-time leader in scoring/assists/MVPs/awards:

K.C. Jones 8
Bob Cousy 6
Derek Fisher 5
Ron Harper 5
Magic Johnson 5
Steve Kerr 5
Slater Martin 5
Larry Siegfried 5
B.J. Armstrong 3
Sam Cassell 3
Gerald Henderson 3
Dennis Johnson 3
Tony Parker 3
John Paxson 3
Brian Shaw 3

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 6/11/2013 12:23a).]

Another good way to address this statistically, although still flawed, is to pick 20 players you believe to be in the conversation, rank, in your opinion, the 10 most important criteria (1. Finals MVPs, 2. MVPs, 3. APG, 4. PPG, 5. All Star selections, 6. All Defensive team selections, 7. Championships, 8. SPG, 9. RBG, 10. ???) with a minimum of at least 5 seasons played), add a multiplier with x10 for the most important, x9 for the second and so on, and then rank the players 1-20 in each category with the best getting 20 points, second getting 19, and so on. Although the problem with that is you'd still have guys like Stockton who would probably get screwed, and Nash would probably be higher than he should be.

quote:

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Who knows how good he would have been if he had practiced.

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Solid.

Not that he deserves to be on the list but he is in the ballpark:

Tim Hardaway
15373 points
7095 assist

He reached 5,000 points and 2,500 assists faster than any other NBA player, except Oscar Robertson

Hardaway holds the NBA record for the worst single-game shooting performance in NBA history, going 0-for-17 in a 106-102 win against the Minnesota Timberwolves on December 27, 1991

An indicator how the rules and strategy of basketball have changed things tremendously.

quote:

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PGs on 50th Anniversary team (1996):
Cousy
Magic
Oscar
Stockton
Archibald
Maravich
Isiah
Wilkens

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8 players of 50 (16%) make the list.

In ESPN's most recent top 30 list, they list 3 in top 7 (CP3, TP, Westbrook), & Kyrie at #12, and continue later on with Steph Curry, Deron Williams, John Wall, Rondo, and Rose at #23. That is 9 of top 23 players (again, ESPN ranking) that are PG that are the top players in league, almost 40%.

My guess is that change has come at the expense of the center.

Parker will never dominate the stat lists but he will likely end up with some nice career numbers. He's 31 and has just under 15k points and over 5k assists. He will likely average in the 1200 and 450 range for the next 4 or so seasons and then could keep playing with diminished numbers for a while, maybe until he is 40ish. Teams will always want a guy like him around (even if it isn't the Spurs) due to his experience, rings, and knowledge. So let's assume he plays another 4 years at half that production. That would put his career numbers around 23k points and 8k assists, making him potentially the highest scoring PG and Top 10 in Assists.

Outside of a guy like Magic it really is tough to rate PG's though because their style of play is so different. Do you value scoring above assists or vice versa? Do you value winning more than either? How do you evaluate athleticism and dominance at their peak?

I agree... Rondo will probably not end up in the scoring list but he is a shut down defender and rebounds well.

Joe Dumars could score (was at a game against the Mavs that he had 40) and was the only player that could turn Magic and guard Jordan. He played the off Guard because Thomas and was the point the last 5 years of his career.

You guys are forgetting about defense. Stockon owns at defense, he has like more than 600 steals all-time than the next closest person.

If I have a team of superstars, I want Stockton at his prime. He's the perfect compliment and doesn't care about standing out at all.

I have no problem with Stockton at 2. Making a case for him at #1 would be putting long term consistency above the ability to dominate at any given time ("short term" dominance) which is reasonable.

He averaged 2.17 steals per game. Jordan averaged 2.35. That's pretty amazing. Per game he ranks 8th with Chris Paul the only one ahead of him still playing (2.40).

Stockton did everything well and aside from passing, nothing great. He also did the dirty work..... but never won a title.

quote:

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Famed UCLA basketball coach John Wooden once said Stockton was the NBA player he enjoyed watching the most and the only one he would pay to see.

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[This message has been edited by BBDP (edited 6/12/2013 12:33p).]