I'm confident he'll finish the deal.

been pretty dominating. fun to watch for sure

Ace.

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Ace.

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oh great and wonderful corlene...is water wet? please enlighten us with all your wisdom.

dumbass

I laughed, Corleone.

Clay Bucholz.

Ace?

Anibal Sanchez.

Ace?

Time to bow out?

Someone want to fill me in on the "Ace" threads. I've seen it a lot but have no idea what it refers to.

I think, Corleone had some conflict with someone about the definition of an Ace.

Little help?

Basically I said CJ Wilson was one of the top pitchers in baseball back in late 2010 or around there and would likely continue to be. Somehow corleone morphed that into me saying he was an "ace" -- his words, not mine.

Corleone said he was a "#3 at best". I pointed out that was idiotic, and it's been butthurt central ever since.

He went on to list 15 pitchers who were "aces" -- I think 3 of which have put up a better overall ERA than CJ since that time.

[This message has been edited by free_mhayden (edited 10/14/2013 5:05p).]

hayden thinks CJ is one of the best pitchers in baseball.

I don't.

And Fangraphs agrees with me.

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Someone want to fill me in on the "Ace" threads. I've seen it a lot but have no idea what it refers to.

I think, Corleone had some conflict with someone about the definition of an Ace.

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Corleone thinks CJ is a 2 or a 3 or something like that, mhayden thinks he's better.

Mhayden thinks CJ is an ace or a #1 or something like that, and Corleone thinks CJ is worse.

To be fair, I don't think Corleone normally frames it as "#3 at best"- he made a sarcastic remark about that once or twice.

I'm caught up in this too, and I'm in the middle somewhere as I believe CJ is a weak "#1", and much better suited to be a "#2".

Ceej the Veej is a solid #2.

Not that anyone cares about my opinion.

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posted 4:06p, 11/13/11this user's public profilesend private message to useredit this replyobject to this reply



Oh, sorry...here are my aces heading into next year:


Verlander
Halladay
Lee
Kershaw
Lincecum
F.Hernandez
Weaver
Sabathia
Hamels
Lester
Cain
Price


Guys like Strasburg, Hanson, Pineda, Latos, Kennedy, Gallardo, and Greinke aren't too far off.


And the funny thing is, I just have a feeling, that there isn't a GM in baseball that takes CJ Wilson over any of these guys.

Any of them.

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it's ok to argue ceej is not an "ace" but you just look like a dumbass and go off the deep end with statements like the one above. ceej is not an ace, and probably wouldnt be a "1" for lots of teams this past year. but i bet most general managers would love to have a guy that has had his production the last 4 seasons...how many pitches have had a better 4 years?

there are very few "ace" pitchers in mlb.

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but i bet most general managers would love to have a guy that has had his production the last 4 seasons...

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Love to have him? Probably all of them, and if you'll notice, Coreleone didn't say any different.

Love to have him as their #1? Perhaps some, but I still would contend they're mostly GMs of ****ty teams.

I actually think that list is mostly correct- not in defining them as aces, but as pitchers more wanted than CJ. The red lights I see are Lincecum and Lester, and I suppose Halladay, but age catches up to everyone at some point.

(Their performance is their performance, so not to make an excuse, full credit to CJ for out performing them the past two seasons, but I think if you polled everyone here back after the 2011 season, Timmy and Doc would be pretty high on just about everyone's list.)

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there are very few "ace" pitchers in mlb.

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Mostly agreed.

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how many pitches have had a better 4 years?

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From that list? Off the top of my head, Verlander, Lee, Kershaw, Hernandez, Weaver, Hamels, and Price.

Probably Sabathia, and quite possibly Cain (although I'm sure there's some particular stat out there that CJ has them beat on).

From that secondary group, when he pitched, Strasburg.

Grienke is close.

So that's 10 names, not counting Grienke. And I'm not sure at least one of them (Strasburg) has been the best pitcher on his own team (Gio Gonzalez).

There are also some glaring omissions- Adam Wainwright comes to mind.

Johnny Cueto does, too.

And then you have to debate do you take the steadiness of a Hiroki Kuroda over the hit-and-miss of CJ Wilson?

Or the aforementioned Mat Latos over the hit-and-miss of CJ?

If you take CJ because of his 2010-2011 performance, do you take Halladay with his epic 2010-2011 over CJ?

Anibal Sanchez's ERA+ (its the magic stat, right?) is identical to CJs, but he's not been as steady, his best has just been better? What about him?

And how do factor in a guy like Matt Harvey?

Or Chris Sale?

What about Max Scherzer?

Yu Darvish?

How many names am I at, now? (And I've not yet even mentioned 2 of the last 4 year's Cy Young winners!)

[This message has been edited by TXAggie2011 (edited 10/14/2013 8:20p).]

The list was guys at the time; I wasn't asked to project out to 2013.

And again, especially for my friend Lefrayden, pull up Fangraphs for MLB starters in 2013 and report back.

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I actually think that list is mostly correct- not in defining them as aces, but as pitchers more wanted than CJ

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thats just it. his list was "aces heading into the season" and then he spouted all these other names that he claimed were clearly better than cj...which just screams butthurt...i mean pineda? kennedy? gallardo? over a guy that was the work horse (or #1) for not one, but two world series teams?

Not that I have any dog in this fight at all, nor would I have had an opinion about it at the time - but it appears that Wilson has made himself into a serviceable starter over the last 4 seasons.

Whether he is #1, 2 or 3 in the rotation certainly depends on which team and whose rotation we're talking about.

I think there's a lot of butt hurt going around.

(And Yovani Gallardo's ERA+ the next year was 112, Ian Kennedy's 101, and CJ Wilson's an even 100. )

And Pineda got hurt.

Lefrayden is really good at this!

[This message has been edited by Corleoneag99 (edited 10/14/2013 8:25p).]

and 3 of his "aces" had the following:

lincecum - 68
lester - 87
halladay - 90

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To be fair, I don't think Corleone normally frames it as "#3 at best"- he made a sarcastic remark about that once or twice.

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His comment was "he is a #2 or #3 at best".

And my response was to call CJ Wilson at "#3 at best" is idiotic.

And it is STILL idiotic.

Basically corleone was still butthurt that CJ Wilson blew it in the World Series, so he made an exagerrated comment that when called out on it instead of saying "yeah I exagerrated", he dug his heels in and has continued to look like an idiot. In an attempt to deflect, he then tried to shift the debate to CJ Wilson not being an "ace" -- something that I don't believe you'll find me claiming in my posting history at all.

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The list was guys at the time; I wasn't asked to project out to 2013.

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So wait, you can't project a guy out for more than 1 year yet you feel comfortable calling him an "ace" ?

You made a list of 19 guys that were "aces" (or on the cusp) heading into 2012. Almost half of them didn't manage to even finish Top 20 ERA.

Maybe you shouldn't be the guy anyone listens to on who is or isn't an "ace"?

So in November of 2011 you'd have taken CJ over any of those three?

Please say yes.

Again - you said CJ Wilson is a "#3 at best" and still have not back off that stance.

That sums up your ability to evaluate pitchers -- end of thread.

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and 3 of his "aces" had the following:

lincecum - 68
lester - 87
halladay - 90

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Disussed above.

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His comment was "he is a #2 or #3 at best".

And my response was to call CJ Wilson at "#3 at best" is idiotic.

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That a boy,

At least you're getting this part right.

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Again - you said CJ Wilson is a "#3 at best" and still have not back off that stance.

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Why are you saying he won't back off from CJ being a #3 at best when you just said Corleone said CJ was a #2 or #3 at best?

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Again - you said CJ Wilson is a "#3 at best" and still have not back off that stance.

That sums up your ability to evaluate pitchers -- end of thread.

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You're literally contradicting your own post 5 minutes ago in regards to what I said.

Man you're mad!

BTW, what do you think CJ is, mhayden?

i wouldnt have taken ceeej over lincecum or halladay back in 2011...just like i wouldnt have taken gallardo, kennedy, pineda, latos, lester or hanson over a guy that was the #1 for TWO world series teams.

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i wouldnt have taken ceeej over lincecum or halladay back in 2011...just like i wouldnt have taken gallardo, kennedy, pineda, latos, lester or hanson over a guy that was the #1 for TWO world series teams.

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CJ was the #1, huh?

There's a couple guys who probably disagree.

TxAggie2011 - get a ****ing hobby dude. More than 2 people have randomly pointed out how you try and disagree with every single post I make. You're an intelligent dude, there's no need to try and backup and idiot's point (corleone) just to keep your schtick going.

If he thought that CJ was a #2 at best, he should have said CJ was a #2 at best. If he included the "#3 at best", then one can only assume that is what he thought (and he hasn't back off of it).

If he doesn't understand how to use the English language properly, then refuting his points is rather difficult -- I can't read his feeble little mind.

Yes corleone, I'm furious... Just like every other time you've said "You must be mad" when you are made to look like a fool. It's your go-to defense mechanism.

Remember when I offered up a wager in 2011 on CJ's future performance and suddenly you were singing a different tune and weaseled out of it? I do -- which is why I know you don't have any faith in any of the **** you spout -- and from the looks of things for good reason.

again, it's not the initial "ace" list that he came up with...its him digging his heels in and listing all those other guys that were "close" and soooo far ahead of ceeej that is just ridiculous.

Halladay's 2011 was arguably better than his 2010, when he won the Cy Young.

I'll take your word for it, I guess. Good call.