http://baseballhall.org/news/press-releases/2014-hall-fame-ballot-out-today

Who do you believe is worthy of Cooperstown? (my selections in Bold)
Moises Alou
Jeff Bagwell
Armando Benitez
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds*
Sean Casey
Roger Clemens*
Ray Durham
Eric Gagne
Tom Glavine
Luis Gonzalez
Jacque Jones
Todd Jones
Jeff Kent
Paul Lo Duca
Greg Maddux
Edgar Martinez
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Jack Morris
Mike Mussina
Hideo Nomo
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza+
Tim Raines
Kenny Rogers
Curt Schilling
Richie Sexson
Lee Smith
J.T. Snow
Sammy Sosa
Frank Thomas
Mike Timlin
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

* Bonds and Clemens get my vote since I believe their pre-PED careers are Hall worthy.

+ Piazza is borderline IMHO, the fact that he was an effing Dodger then an effing Met probably swayed me in keeping him off my list.

Can't let Bonds in without Sammy Sosa. McGwire's exclusion would provide a really tough road for Bonds, Sosa and Clemens.

I'd add Schilling due to his clutch performances in the post season and his overall career.

I don't think Mussina or Morris belong. I'd have to include Palmeiro and Sosa if I let Bonds in.

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McGwire's exclusion would provide a really tough road for Bonds, Sosa and Clemens.

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McGwire was a one trick pony. His only credentials for the Hall are his lifetime HR totals and surpassing Roger Maris, both which products of PEDs. Again I believe both Bonds and Clemens had HoF numbers before resorting to PEDs late in their careers. I'd consider putting in Palermo before putting in McGwire.

I would say that Edgar Martinez and Jeff Kent both deserve it.

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Can't let Bonds in without Sammy Sosa. McGwire's exclusion would provide a really tough road for Bonds, Sosa and Clemens.

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If you let Bonds and Frank Thomas, you'd have an argument regarding Sosa, but, in my opinion, Bond's inclusion alone wouldn't necessitate Sosa's inclusion, and certainly not McGwire's inclusion.

As jkag said, McGwire was a one trick pony, and Sosa didn't have nearly the complete career that Bonds had, either.

PEDs aside, I wouldn't say Sosa's career was as good as Thomas', either.

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Can't let Bonds in without Sammy Sosa. McGwire's exclusion would provide a really tough road for Bonds, Sosa and Clemens.

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If you let Bonds and Frank Thomas, you'd have an argument regarding Sosa, but, in my opinion, Bond's inclusion alone wouldn't necessitate Sosa's inclusion, and certainly not McGwire's inclusion.

As jkag said, McGwire was a one trick pony, and Sosa didn't have nearly the complete career that Bonds had, either.

PEDs aside, I wouldn't say Sosa's career was as good as Thomas', either.

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If you remove the PED question, Bonds, McGwire and Sosa are all 1st ballot hall of famers.

[This message has been edited by Say chowdah (edited 11/28/2013 8:50a).]

I read an interesting article about Mussina this morning that has led me to reconsider my position on him. Is he the Rafael Palmeiro of pitching? I mean that comparison as a compliment as I believe it to be a better quality to be really good for a long time rather than great for only a few years. Collectively, his stats are very impressive but at no point was he truly dominant.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/42598/mussina-should-be-slam-dunk-hall-of-famer


[This message has been edited by hawk1689 (edited 11/28/2013 9:13a).]

i can't wait for all these old ass farts to die off so we can let bonds, mcgwire and sosa into the Hall of fame. It's blatantly obvious they belong in the hall of fame, and they should find a way to revoke jim rice's bull**** inclusion into the hall, too

Did Mussina ever test positive or even linked to performance enhancers?

no, but he should be a hall of famer in my opinion

Mussina is the only Yankee I ever liked as a Yankee

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Can't let Bonds in without Sammy Sosa. McGwire's exclusion would provide a really tough road for Bonds, Sosa and Clemens.

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If you let Bonds and Frank Thomas, you'd have an argument regarding Sosa, but, in my opinion, Bond's inclusion alone wouldn't necessitate Sosa's inclusion, and certainly not McGwire's inclusion.

As jkag said, McGwire was a one trick pony, and Sosa didn't have nearly the complete career that Bonds had, either.

PEDs aside, I wouldn't say Sosa's career was as good as Thomas', either.

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If you remove the PED question, Bonds, McGwire and Sosa are all 1st ballot hall of famers.

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We're only removing the PED "question" so much as looking at what they did in their careers that maybe wasn't reliant on PEDs.

McGwire hit home runs and drew walks. That's all he did. Bonds hit for average, he could run the bases, he'd even play some good defense at times. Sosa was somewhere in between.

Then the mussina/palmeiro comparison doesn't make much sense. Mussina will probably get in, but he is similar to biggio...hall of very good and consistent for a long time.

I'd agree with that comparison of biggio

go **** yourself token, Rice is absolutely deserving, as is Edgar Martinez and Schill

no surprise that you want all the cheaters in there either. as a fan of the mfy, of course you have no integrity

I admire your passion against cheaters. I suspect you will keep that mindset with Ortiz is eligible.

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Mussina will probably get in, but he is similar to biggio...hall of very good and consistent for a long time.

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Except Mussina didn't hit one of those magical career marks that "automatically" get you to Cooperstown. Mussina should get in, it will just take longer than I believe it should.

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Who do you believe is worthy of Cooperstown?

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Abstaining from the PED guys

Immediately:
Glavine
Maddux

Soon:
E. Martinez
Mussina
Biggio
Bagwell
Thomas
L. Smith

Eventually:
Mattingly
Morris
Piazza
Raines
Schilling

Borderline:
McGriff
Trammell
Walker

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go **** yourself token, Rice is absolutely deserving, as is Edgar Martinez and Schill

no surprise that you want all the cheaters in there either. as a fan of the mfy, of course you have no integrity

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schilling is HOF? Then Andy pettitte and mussina better get in before, along with jack Morris

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go **** yourself token, Rice is absolutely deserving, as is Edgar Martinez and Schill

no surprise that you want all the cheaters in there either. as a fan of the mfy, of course you have no integrity

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schilling is HOF? Then Andy pettitte and mussina better get in before, along with jack Morris

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I agree with this

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Who do you believe is worthy of Cooperstown?

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Abstaining from the PED guys

Immediately:
Glavine
Maddux

Soon:
E. Martinez
Mussina
Biggio
Bagwell
Thomas
L. Smith

Eventually:
Mattingly
Morris
Piazza
Raines
Schilling

Borderline:
McGriff
Trammell
Walker

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What iS the utility in tiered acceptance? Do some guys not put up good stats until after they retire. This phenomena is one of the dumber things in sports. Either you were great or you werent

It's just the nature of the voting game. Some writers are dicks who don't want anyone to get in unanimously or on their first try, or have some other quibble. Call my list a prediction, if you will, rather than a "these guys ought to be in the Hall of Fame" list.

I tiered it in rough terms of, 1st year entrants, 2-5, 5-10, and 10-15 years on the ballot.

I get the 1st ballot thing. Not all Hall of Famers had equal careers, and its a way to distinguish between the greats and the greats.

I don't know why the rest of it happens, but I would guess much of it is not a result of conscious thought. I think its just human tendency that legends grow over time.

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I get the 1st ballot thing. Not all Hall of Famers had equal careers, and its a way to distinguish between the greats and the greats.

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+1

LeFraud,

My comparison of Mussina to Palmeiro didn't have anything to do with PED's. I've given up on the whole PED anger because none of us know who the guilty parties are and exactly how extensive the problem was in baseball. A few guys have taken the heat while others have skated by without mention. I am skeptical of anybody who played well into their 40's, including Biggio and Mussina.

I always felt like Biggio was considered to be elite by the common fan. He went to a few more allstar games than the other two. I suppose the analogy works, I just thought Palmeiro was a better fit.

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I am skeptical of anybody who played well into their 40's, including Biggio and Mussina.

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Why? Lots of players before the advent of PEDs played into their 40s and at a high level or at least at a level equivalent to what Biggio and Mussina did after reaching 40.

[This message has been edited by jkag89 (edited 12/1/2013 5:42p).]

I guess Nolan should be out......

Baseball HOF voting is a joke.

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I guess Nolan should be out......

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...and Warren Spahn.

FWIW, Biggio only played until age 41 and he declined very quickly those final few seasons.

Mussina never played a MLB game as a 40 year old.

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I guess Nolan should be out......

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...and Warren Spahn.

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And Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial, Honus Wagner, Rogers Hornsby, Frank Robinson, among others.

okay, where to begin...

- the 2 no doubt no-brainers are Biggio and Maddux. Should both be voted in. As I've posted before... Biggio's knee injury in 2000 at age 34 (along with the move into MMP) is the clear separation point of his career. He was not the same player after the injury and did not have "remarkable" (and therefore suspicious) seasons after the age of 35 like so many other confirmed and highly suspected roiders.

- we've also discussed on this board before about power hitters due to luck or other circumstances are going to escape the steroid era and make it to the Hall of Fame. Bagwell, Piazza, and Frank Thomas fit into this category. From the 2000 SI article we know that Bags used andro and creatine. That is not news. Bagwell was a 4-tool player for much of his career.

- I suppose Tom Glavine will get in, but he would not get my vote. Three reasons: (1) face of the 1994 players strike. (2) had great years when he played on great teams, never had good years on bad teams. Never had anything approaching a 1972 Steve Carlton-esque season which I like to see from HoF pitchers. His W-L was defintely a product of the team around him moreso than most pitchers. (3) never seen a starting pitcher's success on a given night be due so much to whether or not the umpire was giving the outside corner call.

Curt Schilling - no. Too many mediocre seasons to offset his handful of great ones.

Rock Raines and Jack Morris - I could be talked into both of them. Feel for the guys that played in the 80's.

Larry Walker - I think he is a borderline Hall of Famer. Definitely closer than many others. Was a true 5-tool player for several years. Obviously Coors Field helped his power numbers. He may get in someday. Perhaps via the veterans committee.

Edgar Martinez - stuck behind guys like Walker that contributed speed and defense to their teams and HoF resumes.

Mike Mussina - No. To win 270 games with a 3.68 career ERA...he played on a lot of great teams with great offenses. The best season of his career was at age 23 in 1992. Never quite lived up to that season again. His NYY years were very average. Compare him to Don Sutton (whom a lot of people think shouldn't be in the HoF)...Sutton had a 3.26 career ERA. Glavine had a 3.54 career ERA.

Jeff Kent - No. He posted all of his great numbers at second base, because he couldn't play defense at any other position.

None of the confirmed roiders get in on my ballot. Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, et al.

And for the record I was glad to see Jim Rice get in. The most feared hitter in the American League for a 6 or 7-year period in the late 70's to early 80's. Also eight 100-RBI seasons

[This message has been edited by W (edited 12/3/2013 11:33a).]

and a couple of thoughts on Moises Alou...he would make the fastball hitters Hall of Fame. One of the best fastball hitters I've ever seen. Also one of the last great hitters not to wear batting gloves. If he had not lost the entire 1999 season due to injury, he would be a borderline hall of famer. Career BA .303

The knock Jim Ed Rice was that he didn't talk to the media for years. He didn't like the media so the media didn't like him.

The media tried to paint him as a beacon for race relationships in the MLB. He wanted none of that as he was uncomfortable speaking in public and just wanted to play baseball. He got along very well with his teammates and with the fans in general but he didn't want anything to do with being a racial ambassador. So he stopped talking altogether.

Towards the end of his career he could hit into a DP with first base empty. But, as W alluded to, he was the most feared AL hitter for several years. The media punished him for 15 years. The Sox changed their rules around retiring player numbers in Jim's 14th year of eligibility, when they retired Johnny Pesky, just in case Rice didn't get it.

Token doesn't like Rice because Rice is black.

Don't forget about the veteran's committee or whatever they are called now too.

That list contains Joe Torre, Tony LaRussa, Bobby Cox, George Steinbrenner, and former long time BWAA ballotees Ted Simmons and Dale Murphy. Should be interesting what comes of that ballot.