Umps/fans, need help on this call

2,475 Views | 11 Replies | Last: 10 yr ago by BTKAG97
JAC97
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AG
In the 30 plus years I have played and coached baseball, I have never seen this play and need your thoughts:

Runner on first and third, two outs, lefty pitching. The runner on first makes a beeline through the infield grass to THE PITCHER (honest to God). The pitcher calmly steps off and the runner darts in the infield grass towards third. No throw was made and the pitcher just stood there in disbelief as the runner ran past the pitchers mound IN THE GRASS back to first.

Obviously, they were playing for the balk and it didn't work. Runner on third didn't advance to home. Upon first thought, one would think the runner on first would be out for blatantly running out of the base path. So the question is, why did the umps not call him out? Was it because no attempt was made to throw the ball and catch the runner on first in a pickle?

If not, then what is the difference from him just getting into a pickle and running all over the infield grass to avoid the tag, which would obviously be an out.

Apologizes if its confusing, but that was a new one for me.

Thoughts?
Squirrel Master
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What a retarded play.

But you're on the right track as to why he's not out. A runner isn't out of the baseline until a fielder makes an attempt to tag him, since the runners path isn't established until that point. The pitcher sticks his glove out towards him as he's initially going across, and he'd have been out the as soon as he took another step not directly toward second from where he was in the middle of the diamond, theoretically.
ABATTBQ87
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quote:
A runner isn't out of the baseline until a fielder makes an attempt to tag him, since the runners path isn't established until that point.
This is correct,

If the pitcher would have stepped off and ran at the runner, and the runner then immediately returned to first or made an attempt to gain second he would not be considered out of the "established" basepath, but if he got in a run down he would most certainly have been called out immediately.
Corporal Punishment
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What level of baseball was this, OP? High school?
njw92
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Since this seems to be answered, I'll hijack with a strange call I saw in a HS game last week. Runner gets in a pickle and is eventually tagged by the SS. In the process of the tag, the ball comes loose. The loose ball did not touch the ground - popped a couple feet in the air and the SS caught it. By this time, the runner was back on the bag. Runner was ruled out. I was surprised that the tag counted given the obvious ball juggle...
Corporal Punishment
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Interesting, but I have no beef with that. Seems like the few times I've seen a bobble after a tag, they consider it "not a bobble" so long as the fielder recovers it before it hits the ground...but I'm not an ump so I don't know what the textbook call is in that situation.

edit: I found this on some random high school baseball blog:

quote:
For a couple of years, the NFHS sold electronic copies of the rules and casebook, which are easy to cut and paste from. From the 2009 rules 8-4-2h:
(runner is out when he) is touched by a live ball securely held by a fielder or is touched by a fielder's glove or hand with the live ball held therein, while the runner is not touching his base.
......
2. The ball is not securely held if it is dropped or juggled after the runner is touched.


And from 2-24-4 A tag out is the put out of a runner, including the batter-runner, who is not in contact with his base when touched with a live ball, or with the glove or hand when the live ball is held securely therein by a fielder. The ball is not considered as having been securely held if it is juggled or dropped after the touching, unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder (8-4-2h2).
JAC97
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Unfortunately, 6A high school. I guess its what you call Busch league
njw92
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Hmm, maybe the umpire ruled that the runner deliberately dislodged the ball. The strange thing was the ump was right there and seemed to start to indicate safe until the SS regained the ball without it touching the ground. The last is simply my impression of course.
ABATTBQ87
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quote:
The loose ball did not touch the ground - popped a couple feet in the air and the SS caught it. By this time, the runner was back on the bag. Runner was ruled out. I was surprised that the tag counted given the obvious ball juggle...

The only thing that I could think of is if the SS was in the process of removing the ball after the tag and the umpire ruled it was a transfer from glove to hand (ball popped up) instead of a drop.


Squirrel Master
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AG
quote:
Runner gets in a pickle and is eventually tagged by the SS. In the process of the tag, the ball comes loose. The loose ball did not touch the ground - popped a couple feet in the air and the SS caught it. By this time, the runner was back on the bag. Runner was ruled out. I was surprised that the tag counted given the obvious ball juggle...

I agree that this seems like a surprising call. Based on this description, I'd have thought him safe.
canaAg12
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AG
In regards to the play where the SS juggled the ball, and the runner was still ruled out, this was the wrong call in that situation, unless the umpire ruled that the fielder was exchanging the ball to make a throw, or the umpire ruled the fielder had control of the ball long enough throughout the tag to rule the runner out. If neither of those is not the case, then the umpire's ruling was incorrect.

In regards to the first play mentioned, you could look at it this way. To an extent, there is no baseline for the runner until a play is trying to be made on that runner; either between two bags, or say a ball dinked right out in front of the plate where the catcher is throwing to first. Once a play is trying to be made on the runner, he has established the baseline which he must take to the next base, and is not allowed to veer from that line by more than 3 feet on each side to avoid a tag. In which case he is then ruled out. However, if no attempt to get runner out is made, he can not be ruled out of the baseline.

Umpiring gets difficult in these situations, mainly because it really all up to how an umpire "interprets" the rule. Some umpires may "interpret" a play just a little different then others, even though the goal of the rules in place are to attempt to keep everything uniform.

coconutED
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I had thought that there was some language in the rule book that said that a runner could be called out for "confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game," but it turns out that only applies to running the bases backwards. Although, since the pitcher's mound is slightly closer to Home than Second, I can see the case being made to apply that rule.
BTKAG97
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quote:
one would think the runner on first would be out for blatantly running out of the base path.
As stated above, the runner establishes the base path. Otherwise all runners would be called out for "rounding a base".

For example, after hitting the ball and you believe you can get a double, the correct path to take is to run in an arc in foul territory towards first base in order to have a straight line towards second base.

Here is the best diagram I could find. Though it doesn't show a wide arc it is still clear it directs the runner outside of the baseline from home to first.

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