Just curious what everybody's thoughts are. Do you think he belongs in the hall of fame? Personally, I think he belongs. Along with A-Rod. I know they cheated but it takes serious talent, aside from the PED's, to put up the kind of numbers they have.

quote:

---

Just curious what everybody's thoughts are. Do you think he belongs in the hall of fame? Personally, I think he belongs. Along with A-Rod. I know they cheated but it takes serious talent, aside from the PHD's, to put up the kind of numbers they have.

---

Definitely need more than a PHD.

Neither belong.

Yes, put them in. No one else was hitting 70 homeruns during a time everyone was using. Make or designate a wing or whatever for the Juiced era, but they should get into the hall. Them "cheating" didn't keep anyone else from getting in. Of the cheaters, they were still the best of the best.

for Bonds and the others...it starts with full disclosure and a mea culpa.

then fans and voters might have mercy on them.

But if the guys keep denying...they'll never get in

There were lots of people doing it when they played, so yes.

Cheating is as old as games themselves, but PEDs weren't even cheating when they were on Vitamin S

Spitballs
Pine tar
Cocaine
Speed
Corked bats
Steroids available in the 50s

I guarantee there are guys in the HoF that used speed or cocaine or corked bats or spitballs or something else.

Yes, both belong, especially Bonds

quote:

---

I think the two biggest tragedies I've seen in baseball are that Buck O'Neal and Ron Santo didn't get the honor of being there for their enshrined. Talk about two guys who just LOVED the game. Just a shame.

---

O'Neal still isn't enshrined; he just has an award named after him. I do have an O'Neal autograph card that's part of my HOF collection because, like you, I think it's a travesty that he is not in the HOF with a plaque.

It's not the cheating that's a big deal to me. Everyone was doing it. No big deal.

But when you lie, continually proclaim you innocence, threaten those who 'come after you' and try and muster up sympathy for yourself then you're a POS and don't deserve chit.

Them and Clemens have no business in the HOF.

Hell no, Mojo.

Nope. He cheated to break a record attained honestly.

So what's everyone's thoughts on Pete Rose then?

Posthumously (sp?) only.

quote:

---

So what's everyone's thoughts on Pete Rose then?

---

Why don't you just go away.

Rose is getting caught in more lies. Used to be all for him in the hall but in light of new info, don't think he should be.

If you don't like the thread, then don't look at it.

Pete Rose should be in the Hall. One of the greatest to play the game. He gambled on baseball. So what. I'm sure that didn't affect his performance on the field at all.

quote:

---

Posthumously (sp?) only.

---

I can definitely get behind the posthumous induction. Seems like it makes the most sense for all of these players.

Okay tough guy.

Nope.

Pete accepted a lifetime ban for exchange of dropping the investigation and further legal woes.

He made that bed and has to live with his shortcomings.

quote:

---

Nope. He cheated to break a record attained honestly.

---

You don't know what Aaron did or didn't take

20 years from now, when players have bio mechanical arms, I guess they'll have to just get rid of the Hall of Fame.

quote:

---

Nope. He cheated to break a record attained honestly.



You don't know what Aaron did or didn't take

---

Do you know something that we don't?

I'm just shocked at how few former players --- guys that played during the height of the 'roid era (1995-2005) and are not HoF material --- have spoken out or confessed about what they took or saw other players take. The silence has been remarkable. These guys have nothing to lose since they have already made their money and the possibility of Cooperstown is not hanging over their heads. Almost wonder if their pension has been threatened if they talk

Or they don't feel a need to snitch on their friends.

And why would someone like (for example) Sean Casey admit to using?

Exactly. Why would someone risk potentially making themselves a pariah when the storm has largely passed? Laying low and not making yourself a headline grabbing outlier seems to be the best strategy. Those are the roiders that will make it into the HOF and/or still stand on good ground with fans and former teammates.

Many people tend to forget that not only did Bonds and A-Rod cheat, but they're just overall by many accounts horrible people.

I feel no sympathy for anyone like them and hope they go to their graves wishing they were inducted in the HOF.

I'd put him in and I hate Bonds. But there is no doubt he was one of the best players with or without steroids.

Hank has repeatedly admitted to taking amphetamines during his career which are banned. Cheating has happened in baseball since the beginning. Barry Bonds is one of the best sluggers of all time and is a sure fire no doubt HOFer.

amphetamines don't have the same effect as steroids. Just look at the numbers...

in the year 2000...there were 5,693 home runs hit in MLB --- that's an average of 189 per team

in 1975...there were 2,698 HR's hit --- an average of 112 per team

No one claims they have the "same" effect.

But it can't be denied speed helped players.

In 1985, there were 3602 HRs, 138.5 per team.

and more data against the idea that amphetamines do the same thing as 'roids...

in 1992 Fred McGriff led the NL in home runs with just 35.

going further back...

in 1976 Graig Nettles led the AL in home runs with a scant 32.

those HR totals would not have been top 10 during the height of the 'roid era

Steroids were available way before the 90s, btw.

Speed doesn't really make you stronger, but it improves resiliency, focus, etc. Who do you think is better, Adderall Crush Davis or no-Adderall Crush Davis?

performance enhancing drugs, or what is banned today, go back to the 19th century. Stimulants, Testosterone and other supplements were developed and available as early as the 1920s

Cy Williams lead the NL in homers with 18 in 1920 (148 games, 590 at bats). 3 years later Williams hits 41 homers in 136 games and 535 at bats.

Babe Ruth led the league in 1918 with 11 homers (95 games). 2 years later he hits 54 homers in 142 games.

im sure there are countless examples in the past 90+ years of guys who would have a spike of 15+ homers. Bonds, Sosa, and McGuire's numbers don't look that out of the norm compared to the rest of history. There has been a guy hit 50+ homers in every decade since 1920s, Until the 1998 season, there had only been a few seasons where a guy hit 60 home runs, but plenty of guys had 50+ seasons, including Ruth 4 times, on a 154 games schedule. Since 1998 there have been a couple of 70+ seasons, and more 60+ seasons, on a 162 game schedule. So really the numbers are about the same as they have been for the past 90 seasons.

thats a lot of words to say that 73 homers in 2001 doesnt seem that out of the ordinary as 60 homers in 1927

Or a career journeyman who suddenly erupts for two great seasons, including 61 HRs one year

What about the better bats nowadays. I'd be willing to be that impacts the ball in a positive way. Or the new balls today. I'd bet they have better carry than the ones twenty years ago.

My point is technology impacts the game as to where historical numbers will fluncuate from those of years past. Same way steroids impacted numbers and results. If bonds and arod don't get in, nobody should since their equipment impacted their numbers.

Times change, things happen. My point is it isn't like they were the only two who did steroids. Their were many, still are. Some will be caught. Some won't. Some members in the hall of fame did bad things and weren't caught as will some future members. However some people will get caught that should be in the hall of fame left out only because they were caught.