B**** missed it by 15 votes. I'm sure you are all aware.

Does he make it next year? Or the next? Or ever?

Edit: you kidding me, Staff?? Can't even put B A G G Y without it getting asterisked?

it included a derogatory spelling of Aggie.

He'll make it next year. I think Raines makes it next year as well, along with Pudge and possibly Vlad.

Vlad will get in, just not sure it'll be year 1. Pudge will likely get labeled as a roider. He'll have to wait several years IMO.

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Vlad will get in, just not sure it'll be year 1. Pudge will likely get labeled as a roider. He'll have to wait several years IMO.

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I wouldn't be surprised if Pudge doesn't make it in year 1 because of PED suspicions, but I would expect he won't wait past year 2. I don't think he'll have to wait as long as Piazza.

Isn't Posada on the ballot? I'd see him before Pudge, just because of the NY connection.

I don't see Posada as a HOFer at all. Decent offensive numbers, but nothing spectacular. Zero Gold Gloves. Looks like 11 seasons he ranked in the top 5 for stolen bases allowed. 10 times he ranked in the top 5 for passed balls. The only thing that would get him in is the fact that he was a Yankee.

this definitely needed its own thread

Pudge will have to wait several years?

Hahahaha, no.

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Pudge will have to wait several years?

Hahahaha, no.

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You honestly think he won't receive the same treatment as Piazza and Bagwell? Unlike both of those guys, Pudge has actually been named as a user by Canseco. Both Piazza and Bagwell have not been named or listed in any actual reports and still aren't listed on some voters' ballots because of steroids.

Piazza and Bagwell were both great players -- Pudge was arguably the greatest catcher of all time.

Unless some steroid smoking gun comes out in the next year, he's a first ballot Hall of Famer. His link to steroids has always been tertiary (can I use that word like that?), and he's kept his head down and been a good ambassador to the league the last few years.

I feel like the voters also are lot more strict on possible steroid links with massive sluggers. Pudge will get in because of his defensive prowess. That's not to say that steroids don't help defense (arm strength), but the connection is not as blatant.

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Pudge will have to wait several years?

Hahahaha, no.

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Mr. "Only God Knows" who dropped almost 30 pounds in an offseason after the rumors came out about him.

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Pudge will have to wait several years?

Hahahaha, no.

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Mr. "Only God Knows" who dropped almost 30 pounds in an offseason after the rumors came out about him.

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I'm not claiming Pudge didn't use PEDs... I think the vast majority of homerun hitters in the league did. I'm just saying the association between him and steroids isn't very strong.

If Bagwell got close to 60%, it's not hard to believe Pudge will get 75%. Bagwell doesn't even crack a lot of people's Top 10 first-basemen list... Pudge is #2 or #3 of all time at catcher.

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Pudge will have to wait several years?

Hahahaha, no.

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Mr. "Only God Knows" who dropped almost 30 pounds in an offseason after the rumors came out about him.

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I'm not claiming Pudge didn't use PEDs... I think the vast majority of homerun hitters in the league did. I'm just saying the association between him and steroids isn't very strong.

If Bagwell got close to 60%, it's not hard to believe Pudge will get 75%. Bagwell doesn't even crack a lot of people's Top 10 first-basemen list... Pudge is #2 or #3 of all time at catcher.

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What?

Ozzie Smith went first ballot. That alone should make pudge a first ballot guy also.

I could definitely see Pudge being penalized for a suspicion of PEDs, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he goes in next year on the 1st ballot. While I think if one really digs then they'll assume he used them, but when the discussion of players that used PEDs comes up, his name just doesn't seem to come up like others. As someone alluded to earlier, I think it's largely because he didn't hit an insane amount of homeruns. He's a first ballot-worthy player because he's got 13 gold gloves and led the league in Caught Stealing % 9 times. Plus the fact that he's had more AS games as a C than any player in history helps. He was easily the best defensive catcher of his generation and in the top 3 of all time. That doesn't scream PED use (although I think he did use them) like it would had he hit 500 HR.

He's also not going to draw a lot of attention because the metric typically used as evidence of PED use is HR totals, and his career numbers progressed in a very natural trend. Only 1999 really jumps out, as he went from 21 to 35 HR. But after 1999, his HR totals trended downwards for the remainder of his career. His 162-game average was 20 HR and 85 RBI, with his 5 highest HR seasons were 35, 27, 25, 21, and 20.

So, of all the hitters w/ suspicions of PED use, I think he's going to draw the least amount of attention, especially since it's his defensive skills that made him a HOFer. It wouldn't surprise me if he's not first ballot, but it wouldn't surprise me if he is.

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Pudge will have to wait several years?

Hahahaha, no.

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Mr. "Only God Knows" who dropped almost 30 pounds in an offseason after the rumors came out about him.

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I'm not claiming Pudge didn't use PEDs... I think the vast majority of homerun hitters in the league did. I'm just saying the association between him and steroids isn't very strong.

If Bagwell got close to 60%, it's not hard to believe Pudge will get 75%. Bagwell doesn't even crack a lot of people's Top 10 first-basemen list... Pudge is #2 or #3 of all time at catcher.

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What?

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Never failed a drug test, was never implicated in the criminal investigation, wasn't proven to be named in the Mitchell report.

Basically Pudge's strongest steroid connection is Jose Canseco's accusation.

He hit over 30 homeruns just once in his career, and his homerun totals peaked as he entered his prime and fell off at that magic age of 32 when most catchers historically start falling off a cliff.

A litte different than Jeff Bagwell still mashing 40 homeruns at age 35.


Do I think he did them? Yeah, probably... Is there a strong association amongst fans and writers with Pudge Rodriguez and steroids? Absolutely not. The ERA and steroids? Yes. Him specifically? No.


And again... I don't think some of you fully grasp the different level of players that Pudge Rodriguez and a guy like Jeff Bagwell were on. Pudge Rodriguez was arguably the greatest catcher of all time. Bagwell was great, but he's not on that level.

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And again... I don't think some of you fully grasp the different level of players that Pudge Rodriguez and a guy like Jeff Bagwell were on. Pudge Rodriguez was arguably the greatest catcher of all time. Bagwell was great, but he's not on that level.

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Wow.

Bagwell.
OPS+ 149
WAR 79.6 in 15 seasons
WAR7 48.3

Pudge
OPS+ 106 with only one season over 149
WAR 68.4 in 21 seasons
WAR7 39.7

I get Pudge was one of the best defensive catchers of all time ( and his dWAR really inflates his overall while Bagwell's dWAR is basically neutral) but to suggest Bagwell was not one of the best 1B in the live ball era (some have suggested since Musial) is a joke.

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And again... I don't think some of you fully grasp the different level of players that Pudge Rodriguez and a guy like Jeff Bagwell were on. Pudge Rodriguez was arguably the greatest catcher of all time. Bagwell was great, but he's not on that level.

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Wow.

Bagwell.
OPS+ 149
WAR 79.6 in 15 seasons
WAR7 48.3

Pudge
OPS+ 106 with only one season over 149
WAR 68.4 in 21 seasons
WAR7 39.7

I get Pudge was one of the best defensive catchers of all time ( and his dWAR really inflates his overall while Bagwell's dWAR is basically neutral) but to suggest Bagwell was not one of the best 1B in the live ball era (some have suggested since Musial) is a joke.

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Here is a fun one.

wRC+
Bagwell's career total 149 (28th best ever)
Pudge's best season 149


For those who aren't familar with wRC
http://www.fangraphs.com/library/offense/wrc/

100 = avg
120 = good
140 = great
160 = excellent

Pudge's HR totals are incredibly damning with regard to PED's.

like so many other players the spike screams you-know-what.

he hit 35 HR's in 1999 and was on-pace for 45 HR's in 2000 (but only reached 27 in 91 games due to injury).

and then in 2003 (at age 31) and 2004 (at age 32), he could not even reach the 20 home run mark.

his slugging % fell 200 points in 3 seasons and 300 points in 5 seasons (from a peak in 2000)

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Pudge's HR totals are incredibly damning with regard to PED's.

like so many other players the spike screams you-know-what.

he hit 35 HR's in 1999 and was on-pace for 45 HR's in 2000 (but only reached 27 in 91 games due to injury).

and then in 2003 (at age 31) and 2004 (at age 32), he could not even reach the 20 home run mark.

his slugging % fell 200 points in 3 seasons and 300 points in 5 seasons (from a peak in 2000)

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To say it's "incredibly damning" is a huge stretch. His numbers started declining after 10 years of playing the most physically demanding position in baseball. That doesn't seem damning at all. Even his peak years came in what would be expected to be his "prime". There's nothing really abnormal about the trend of these yearly HR numbers:

3
8
10
16
12
19
20
21
35
27
25
19
16
19
14
13
11
7
10
4
2

To point to the decline in his age 31 and 32 seasons without any reference for the fact that those were his 13th and 14th seasons as an MLB catcher is not exactly a fair argument as it ignores important facts. I have no reason to doubt that he did take PEDs, but pointing to the HR totals as evidence of that, IMO, doesn't scream "PED".

yea...

one guy played more games at CATCHER than any other player in history

the other guy doesn't even crack the top 10 in games played at FIRST BASE

also funny too question Pudge about peds, when Bagwell somehow doubled his home run output in less than a year, with 130 LESS plate appearances.

Ooooh boy it's easy to spot the Astros fanboys in this thread.

Jeff Bagwell wasn't on the same level as Pudge Rodriguez, and no one in the game would tell you otherwise.

Eddie Murray was a Hall-of-Fame 1st baseman with 85% of the vote on his first ballot. Bagwell didn't even get half of that.

Bagwell put up mega offensive numbers, yes -- at a position where big offensive numbers are traditionally put up. He also played a position that required little of him other than to hit the ball.

Pudge Rodriguez is arguably the greatest catcher of all time.

3rd best catcher. Maybe.

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3rd best catcher. Maybe.

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Bench, Berra and Pudge. No shame in being behind Bench and Berra. 3rd best catcher of all time should be a first ballot election.

I'll amend my thought to fourth. Add Carter in before Pudge.

He won't be a first ballot hall of famer. I'll say 2nd or 3rd ballot. Should he be? Maybe. I think the PED stigma will affect his chances more than you think.

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Ooooh boy it's easy to spot the Astros fanboys in this thread.

Jeff Bagwell wasn't on the same level as Pudge Rodriguez, and no one in the game would tell you otherwise.

Eddie Murray was a Hall-of-Fame 1st baseman with 85% of the vote on his first ballot. Bagwell didn't even get half of that.

Bagwell put up mega offensive numbers, yes -- at a position where big offensive numbers are traditionally put up. He also played a position that required little of him other than to hit the ball.

Pudge Rodriguez is arguably the greatest catcher of all time.

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Bagwell is not on Pudges level

If you don't look at batting

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3rd best catcher. Maybe.

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Bench, Berra and Pudge. No shame in being behind Bench and Berra. 3rd best catcher of all time should be a first ballot election.

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So should one of the greatest pitchers and hitters (Clemens & Bonds), but we all know why they didn't.

I'm not sure anyone is arguing Pudge shouldn't be in. The argument is if he will get in right away. Based on how the voters have treated suspected steroid users it is not crazy to think they will make him wait. Piazza was hands down the best hitter catcher ever and he waited.

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Ooooh boy it's easy to spot the Astros fanboys in this thread.

Jeff Bagwell wasn't on the same level as Pudge Rodriguez, and no one in the game would tell you otherwise.

Eddie Murray was a Hall-of-Fame 1st baseman with 85% of the vote on his first ballot. Bagwell didn't even get half of that.

Bagwell put up mega offensive numbers, yes -- at a position where big offensive numbers are traditionally put up. He also played a position that required little of him other than to hit the ball.

Pudge Rodriguez is arguably the greatest catcher of all time.

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Bagwell is not on Pudges level

If you don't look at batting

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And even if you do. Bagwell is a level or so above Pudge.

Oh, I'd completely disagree about Carter being better than Pudge. But it's really just a matter of opinion though, so who knows.

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The argument is if he will get in right away. Based on how the voters have treated suspected steroid users it is not crazy to think they will make him wait.

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I agree. I wouldn't be surprised if he has to wait a year or two, but I don't think he has to wait until his 4th year. He'll get in sooner than Piazza, but that really may just be due to the recent purge of voters that resulted in the uptick in votes for those w/ PED suspicions.

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The argument is if he will get in right away. Based on how the voters have treated suspected steroid users it is not crazy to think they will make him wait.

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I agree. I wouldn't be surprised if he has to wait a year or two, but I don't think he has to wait until his 4th year. He'll get in sooner than Piazza, but that really may just be due to the recent purge of voters that resulted in the uptick in votes for those w/ PED suspicions.

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That is a good point. There may be a lot less waiting with fewer voters. As it gets farther and farther in the past people may care less too.

Just sticking with catchers and two pretty basic measures of worth.

Bench
WAR - 75 (ranked #48)
OPS+ -126 (#222)

Carter
WAR - 69.9 (68)
OPS+ Never found it and got tired of looking in the ranking list)

Berra
WAR - 59.5 (#121)
OPS+ - 125 (#238)

Piazza
WAR - 59.4 (#122)
OPS+ - 142 (#60)

Pudge
WAR - 68.4 (#74) (he gets the benefit of 21 seasons as WAR is cumulative)
OPS+ - 106 (#824)

Fisk and a couple of others had way better OPS+ measures.

Defensively? I looked at defensive WAR. Pudge was the best catcher (as expected) He ranked #8 overall with a dWAR of 28.7. But (and here's the punch line) Bob Boone was #16 overall and Jim Sundberg was #17. Not in catchers. In all of MLB history.

Is he going to get in? Yes. 1st ballot with all the steroid vapors? I doubt it. We will find out in a year.

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Ooooh boy it's easy to spot the Astros fanboys in this thread.

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Just like it's so easy to spot the Rangers fanboys like yourself who will not leave this thread until everyone bows to the mighty Pudge

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Pudge Rodriguez is arguably the greatest catcher of all time.

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This is the key phrase. If someone disagrees, don't take it personally. Just move along




And for the record, debating between a 1B and a C seems kinda pointless to me, but carry on