TIRAs vs Backdoor Roth TIRA Conversions vs Taxable Brokerage Accounts

1,064 Views | 7 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by permabull
Ghost of Bisbee
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AG
In short, I'll be investing a lump sum of cash soon outside of my 401(k) contributions, and looking to ensure I'm understanding the nuances at a high level of the different account types and strategies...

Is the primary advantage of contributing after-tax to a TIRA the fact that you know you won't be taxed on dividends or capital gains until you withdraw from the TIRA? Whereas in a Taxable Brokerage Account, that isn't the case?

Can you call me out if you see something incorrect below?

Traditional IRAs (outside of company-sponsored 401(k):
Pros:
1) Consolidate your old 401(k) balances from previous employers in from one account and invest it as you see fit
2) Earnings are tax-deferred; no dividends or capital gains are taxed until withdrawals occur after the age requirement is met
3) Convert to Roth IRA using backdoor method regardless of your AGI levels (conversion limited to no more than 6K or 7K per year depending on income limit, or the amount you already have in your TIRA that you plan to convert). You must pay income taxes on the entire converted pre-tax amount + unrealized gains of the converted amount to date.

Cons:
1) RMDs are required once you hit 72
2) Penalized for withdrawing under Age 59 (unless withdrawn for first time home purchase)
3) A proposed bill in congress may remove the Roth IRA backdoor conversion method in 2022 or 2023, requiring an unwinding starting in 2022
4) You have to keep track of after-tax contributions with Form 8606. If not disciplined in tracking after-tax contributions, you could be double-taxed at time of withdrawal
5) Limited to 6K (or 7K dependingon age) each year

Roth IRAs:
Pro:
Gains grow tax-free

Con:
Can't contribute directly once your AGI surpasses the IRS limits

Taxable Brokerage Accounts:
Pros:
1) Liquid; no penalties for withdrawals at any point

Cons:
1) Taxed in the year when these events occur: dividends are paid, you sell equities and realize gains, mutual funds and/or ETFs experience realized gains and pass that income on to you, triggering realized gains (you have no say, other than getting rid of the mutual fund or ETF before it happens)
lockett93
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If you move 401k to TIRA rollover then you will eliminate the backdoor Roth conversion.

I'll jump onboard and ask if it's possible to move my TIRA rollover back into a 401k so that I can then do a mega backdoor Roth? What's the max mega backdoor Roth method? I put $25k into 401k annually
Ghost of Bisbee
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lockett93 said:

If you move 401k to TIRA rollover then you will eliminate the backdoor Roth conversion


Are you sure? I haven't heard that before and don't understand why that constraint would exist when annual contribution to 401(k) are limited already.
lockett93
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Eliminate is the wrong word. But the funds in the IRA now mandate a ratio to be used. https://advancedretirementstrategies.com/what-the-pro-rata-rule-means-for-your-backdoor-roth-ira/

When you do a rollover IRA, all future backdoor are done as a percentage of the total IRA amounts. For example. If you roll over $100k in a 401k to an IRA and then want to do a backdoor Roth of $20k, then the "basis" for that conversion would be that 1/6 ($20/120) is post-tax and thus not taxable and 5/6 would be taxable.


OldArmyCT
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All distributions from a regular IRA are taxed as income, there are no dividend or cap gain taxes. Conversions to a Roth of any kind are taxable, some conversions are complicated. RMD's may go to age 75 soon. Nothing congress does is locked in stone, if you doin't think they can undo the Roth tax advantages in the future without grandfathering existing Roth owners then you haven't been paying attention.
permabull
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I'm not an expert so this is probably not 100% correct but my understanding is this:

Backdoor roths are Roth conversions so traditional IRAs you already have will be considered for taxes on that conversation.

Mega backdoor roths are rollovers so the fact you have a traditional IRA already doesn't impact how much tax you pay. Depending on how your companies 401k is set up you might be able to convert after tax contributions to Roth 401k inside their plan. If they allow an in service distribution, your distribution will be subject to pro rata for the account. So if your 401k is 50/50 pre and post tax, half the amount would be rolled into a traditional IRA and the other half would rolled into Roth IRA. I believe you would owe taxes on the gains to the post tax portion that occured since you made the contributions.

I'd talk to your 401k provider to see what your options are.
Ghost of Bisbee
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OldArmyCT said:

All distributions from a regular IRA are taxed as income, there are no dividend or cap gain taxes. Conversions to a Roth of any kind are taxable, some conversions are complicated. RMD's may go to age 75 soon. Nothing congress does is locked in stone, if you doin't think they can undo the Roth tax advantages in the future without grandfathering existing Roth owners then you haven't been paying attention.


Two questions:
- so in a TIRA, any gains or dividends realized at time of distribution, along with the actual pretax income that you funded the TIRS with, are taxed as ordinary income and there are no cap gains or dividend taxes. The exception is if you contribute post tax income which I'm about to do. Then you would only be taxed on the dividend and cap gains as a result of that basis? That's where my confusion is.
- you're saying that Congress would not be able to retroactively remove the Roth advantages?

Thanks
permabull
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You are taxed based on what percentage of your account is pre tax money. So if you have an IRA with a million and over your career you had put 100k post tax, when you take out say $50k in the first year of retirement, you you would pay tax on $45k of it then you would note the $5k of tax free distributions on your 8606 to keep track that now only $95k of the IRA is post tax which would be the number you carry over to the next year's distribution. If we had a 10% year and your 950k IRA grew to $1045k and you took $50k out in year two, you take 95k/1045k to get ~9.091% of the distribution is tax free, or $4546. You then subtract that from your 95k you carried over and carry over 90,454 to year three and so on and so on
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