When does the music stop?

2,178 Views | 10 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by ChemAg15
Silian Rail
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I've been musing on this for a long time and wanted to get some of the big brains on the business board thoughts. I am uneasy at the extent that vc and investors promote and sustain unprofitable business models to stay in the market and continue to cause havoc,

I own a manufacturing business and have been both a beneficiary and victim of these kind of practices, and have had a great seat on watching how they distort the market. Without getting too specific, an investment capital backed company made a gigantic splash in our industry offering very short delivery times with transparent pricing to the end-user at a fraction of what a normal distribution company would charge.

The benefit to the end-user and to us was massive; we had a customer who scarfed up a ton of marketshare due to their delivery promise and their low mark-up who was flush with cash, placing huge orders and paying 30 days on the dot. The aggression came at a cost though as the company went from zero employees to 250 almost overnight, opened up branches in 11 states and a few different countries and lost millions and millions of dollars per month. It has been a huge net benefit for us, but I've heard a lot of doom and gloom from my distributors who are unable to compete with these guys due to them being small businesses without a pool of investment capital behind them and able to run more or less indefinitely at a loss. They've asked me point blank "how do I compete with a company that charges a flat 7% mark-up when delivery costs are 10-15%?" I don't have a good answer for them.

The situation kind of reminds me a little bit of WeWork, an extremely unprofitable company who wrecked Regus and the other "rent an office" places by under-cutting competition with unsustainable well under breakeven pricing, a cult of personality and some window dressing.
LMCane
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Silian Rail said:

I've been musing on this for a long time and wanted to get some of the big brains on the business board thoughts. I am uneasy at the extent that vc and investors promote and sustain unprofitable business models to stay in the market and continue to cause havoc,

I own a manufacturing business and have been both a beneficiary and victim of these kind of practices, and have had a great seat on watching how they distort the market. Without getting too specific, an investment capital backed company made a gigantic splash in our industry offering very short delivery times with transparent pricing to the end-user at a fraction of what a normal distribution company would charge.

The benefit to the end-user and to us was massive; we had a customer who scarfed up a ton of marketshare due to their delivery promise and their low mark-up who was flush with cash, placing huge orders and paying 30 days on the dot. The aggression came at a cost though as the company went from zero employees to 250 almost overnight, opened up branches in 11 states and a few different countries and lost millions and millions of dollars per month. It has been a huge net benefit for us, but I've heard a lot of doom and gloom from my distributors who are unable to compete with these guys due to them being small businesses without a pool of investment capital behind them and able to run more or less indefinitely at a loss. They've asked me point blank "how do I compete with a company that charges a flat 7% mark-up when delivery costs are 10-15%?" I don't have a good answer for them.

The situation kind of reminds me a little bit of WeWork, an extremely unprofitable company who wrecked Regus and the other "rent an office" places by under-cutting competition with unsustainable well under breakeven pricing, a cult of personality and some window dressing.
have you watched the "WeWork" docudrama on Apple TV with Anne Hathaway?

fantastic!

I went to some of the WeWork facilities in Israel

and was like "uh, this is just an office building like Regus"
Silian Rail
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I haven't seen it but I'll have to, and you're exactly right.

"how is this place different than Regus"
-we have slushie machines and bean bag chairs, and the secretary has pink hair!
topher06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Silian Rail said:

I've been musing on this for a long time and wanted to get some of the big brains on the business board thoughts. I am uneasy at the extent that vc and investors promote and sustain unprofitable business models to stay in the market and continue to cause havoc,

I own a manufacturing business and have been both a beneficiary and victim of these kind of practices, and have had a great seat on watching how they distort the market. Without getting too specific, an investment capital backed company made a gigantic splash in our industry offering very short delivery times with transparent pricing to the end-user at a fraction of what a normal distribution company would charge.

The benefit to the end-user and to us was massive; we had a customer who scarfed up a ton of marketshare due to their delivery promise and their low mark-up who was flush with cash, placing huge orders and paying 30 days on the dot. The aggression came at a cost though as the company went from zero employees to 250 almost overnight, opened up branches in 11 states and a few different countries and lost millions and millions of dollars per month. It has been a huge net benefit for us, but I've heard a lot of doom and gloom from my distributors who are unable to compete with these guys due to them being small businesses without a pool of investment capital behind them and able to run more or less indefinitely at a loss. They've asked me point blank "how do I compete with a company that charges a flat 7% mark-up when delivery costs are 10-15%?" I don't have a good answer for them.

The situation kind of reminds me a little bit of WeWork, an extremely unprofitable company who wrecked Regus and the other "rent an office" places by under-cutting competition with unsustainable well under breakeven pricing, a cult of personality and some window dressing.
Companies say they are making a 7% markup including delivery costs? Think those vendors are probably exaggerating quite a bit, but your point still stands. Lots of study on this for Uber/Lyft and the true long term cost of wrecking the cab industry (although cabs sort of wrecked themselves by not even making an effort to modernize).
Silian Rail
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Not quite, their pricing model is disclosing their cost to the end-user, and selling at 107% of that cost which includes delivery. I'm certain they're probably fudging their "true" cost a little bit, but either way it's well under breakeven.

your uber example is right on and even better than WeWork
Diggity
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
How do you know the upstart company is losing millions of dollars per month? Are they advertising this?

As far as Regus, oddly enough, they were humming along pretty good and were actually a beneficiary of the WeWork related co-working boom. In the end, it was Covid that kicked their butts.
Silian Rail
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Diggity said:

How do you know the upstart company is losing millions of dollars per month? Are they advertising this?

As far as Regus, oddly enough, they were humming along pretty good and were actually a beneficiary of the WeWork related co-working boom. In the end, it was Covid that kicked their butts.
They're not advertising it, but it's fairly common knowledge. I've also gotten a look at their financials.
Diggity
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
They just hand those out? Sounds like a very philanthropical organization.
Win At Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Let me put a call into Michael Scott Paper Company and get back with you.
Proposition Joe
How long do you want to ignore this user?
If nobody is making money, then the ball finally drops.

But seeing as this has been going on for some time now, plenty of people are still making money under this model.

Some businesses will come out the other end successfully, others will not. If a company has sound business practices they should be able to weather any short-term storm -- as Diggity pointed out WeWork wasn't the death knell to Regus. Dent in their profits? Sure. But that's the case when any new competition enters the industry.

Uber/Lyft succeeded because they understood market share and almost more importantly data was key.

If this company you are talking about takes a significant enough piece of market share and it is able to force out the players who can't weather the storm, then they bump prices up. Uber lost money forever, but they are now ingrained in our day-to-day life so bumping prices up 5-10% isn't going to significantly impact their business (and the money they make off of selling user data probably rivals what they make in trips anyways).

I think a lot of people right now see big $$$ moves and just assumes someone is racking up credit card debt (personal) or running an unsustainable, unprofitable model (business). Truth is I don't think a lot of people realize just how much money a lot of people have these days. I wasn't old enough for the oil boom, and was still fairly young for the first big tech boom... But the number of opportunities to make obscene amounts of money for people in their 20's-30's-40's in a relatively quick amount of time over the last 10-15 years in my opinion has been unrivaled in our history.

And I still stand by my comments that WeWork was never about selling workspace solutions to small business owners -- they were about selling the look and prestige of an "office" to a lot of millennials who wanted to look important and be involved in a social business "scene". If someone is paying a premium for a desk, internet connection, printer and unlimited coffee then running an efficient business is secondary to them.
ChemAg15
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The Michael Scott Paper Company comes to mind
Refresh
Page 1 of 1
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.