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The Hassle of Vacation Rentals?

3,669 Views | 25 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Ryan the Temp
CS78
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8:56a, 2/19/23
I dismissed STRs from an investment standpoint years ago because the math just seemed better on long term rentals. And Ive always assumed they'd be a pain.

Ive since purchased hunting property that doesnt get used a lot during traditional spring and summer vacation times. Properties are located 15-45 minutes from my house, in areas that should have some demand. Im kicking around the idea of putting one or more cabins on the properties, to rent when it's not hunting season.

My question, just how much of a pain in the rear are the tenants? I can do the numbers myself but the people variable seems like it could be the deal breaker. I could use the extra cash flow but not if it means Im going to be dealing with drama on a regular basis.

I have a number of years' experience managing normal rentals. Would love to hear thoughts from people that have managed both and how they compare. How often is your phone blowing up while you're trying to watch a movie with the family?
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Ryan the Temp
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3:20p, 2/19/23
AG
Quote:
How often is your phone blowing up while you're trying to watch a movie with the family?
Never.

A few general thoughts that may be more than you asked for:

I am an AirBnB superhost. I've had somewhere close to 500 bookings since I started doing it. I can count the number of truly bad guests (i.e. damage, left the place super filthy, etc.) on one hand. Only once did I ever have to do any form of significant damage repair. In general, my guests have been low-maintenance. I think people who are familiar with how AirBnB works are not expecting to have a five-star concierge experience. One of the things that helps is my price point is high enough that it keeps the riff raff out. We gross about $24,000 per year.

The difference between what I do and what you have described is my rental is in a major city and I get a lot of bookings from people traveling for work or visiting family members. My occupancy rate averages 78%. I think cabins in a rural area or at least off the beaten path would require you to provide more amenities that give people things to do if it's not easy or quick for them to get to a place where there are things to do.

If your intent is to provide lodging for people on hunting trips, consider if you really think there is enough demand to maintain a sustainable occupancy rate and also consider what period of time is acceptable for you to break even. If you do not have the ability to do same-day turnovers, that will eat into your available nights.

Also consider what you think it would cost to build or install the cabins, furnish them, provide utilities (including cable and internet), and have them cleaned and prepped for the next guest. We had an existing building we had been using as a traditional long-term rental. It cost us about $5,000 to completely furnish the place and we spend and average of $350 per month on water, electric, and cable/internet.

My suggestion is to go on AirBnB and look for listing that are similar to what you are considering. Look at how much they charge and what amenities they provide. There are also "AirBnB Experiences" you could offer if you wanted to be a hunting guide or something.
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Red Pear Realty
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4:03p, 2/19/23
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You've been a great resource for landlords like myself, and I've got some time, so lets do this.

I've been hosting on Airbnb since 2017. I have just under 300 reviews, which probably equates to around 1,200-1,500 guest stays. Overall, its been a great experience. We started by renting a house on the weekends when my mom went out of town, and its morphed to us now having three homes that we own and operate as STR's and two more that we "lease" from the owners and operate as STR's.

All five of ours are in the Heights/Rice Military in Houston, so we don't really cater to the "vacation" crowd like STR's in destination type locations. Most of our guests reserve our homes for work, to visit family, or because they are having work done on their own homes and need swing space. Probably less than 15% are traveling for fun. I know there are a lot of hosts with properties in vacation type areas who are suffering right now because lots of folks are cutting back on non-essential spending. I have already helped a couple of hosts sell vacation type STR's. Its that bad already. I purchased all my homes with a baseline that I could rent them on a long term basis and cash flow, and STR revenues were just a bonus. So if Airbnb suddenly just closes down one day, we will be fine. Sounds like you are in a similar situation.

Here are some of the issues I would think you will face in doing what you are asking about:

1. The place becomes less yours. Are you ok with that? Guests moving your furniture around? Taking the batteries from your remotes when they leave? Eating and drinking the food and drinks in your fridge? Bleeding on your sheets? Wiling makeup on your towels? Stealing all the toilet paper? Ordering PPV on your satellite TV? Is the idea of the space becoming "less" yours worth it to you? Only you can make this call.

2. Liability/Risk. You are experienced enough on the LTR side that I think you have a good grasp of this.

3. Management. Yes, it is way more intense than a LTR, and if your guests are unhappy, they will leave poor reviews which leads to more bad reviews which will lead to you not getting bookings. You need to have an iron clad check in system, buttoned up house rules, good communication skills, and then probably most importantly, really reliable cleaners. Lets go over each of these:

Check in/Check Out: This is where most guest complaints come. Mosts hosts have physical keys and that makes for a different check in experience. On check out, Airbnb has experienced a lot of push back in recent months about hosts creating a laundry list of check out instructions for guests to follow, which is objectively wrong. Bad hosts give STR's a bad name. My advice is to make check in and check out as easy as possible for your guests.

House rules: You need to really think about how guests can harm your place, because of it isn't against your rules, Airbnb will not charge the guest for the damage they caused. And there are professional scammers out there that know what they are doing. Out of all my reservations, I've only really had 2-3 "problem" guests.

Good communication: Most people that tell me they don't want to be LTR landlords mention something about not wanting to answer calls from tenants at 2am. You know this isn't really true but it is for STR's. My wife and mom both help me with management of our places, and we definitely wouldn't have as good of a handle on guest management without them.

Cleaners: This has been the most challenging aspect of hosting for us. Finding good cleaners is awful. On top of that, we do the laundry ourselves because we got quotes for that and it was going to cost more than buying mew sheets every reservation. I have also hosted enough that I know our places are cleaner than probably 99% of the places out there, which might be part of our "issue". When we first started hosting our cleaners charged us just $60 (all of our homes are between 800 and 1,300 SF), but since then we've had a couple of cleaners tell is it isn't worth it for them anymore. Even with hiring professionals, we still get problems because some of the girls are just inexperienced. I think some have never seen a bed with sheets on it and I'm not joking. And that is with us fully stocking and organizing a closet with labels for everything for the cleaners.

Another issue is that broken items must be identified before the next guest checks in, or the past guest who broke them is no longer responsible. So better hope your cleaner is competent enough or trained enough to call out if something is broken (TV?) or else you are **** out of luck. This is why many hosts have the laundry list of check out instructions…they cant find cleaners to do it. Our check out instructions are: 1. Don't leave used towels on furniture or anywhere they can damage the house. 2. Leave. 3. Lock the door behind you.

We are almost scaled enough that we can hire someone full time to just clean for us. With this fifth house, we may be there already. I am pretty proud of the fact that I know we are on a list of some kind where when guests have bad experiences with unclean places, we get calls directly from Airbnb asking about emergency bookings and availability. We hear all the time about other hosts who leave out blow up mattresses and a sheet, or who have roach infestations, or filthy places. We aren't the cheapest, but we are reliable, as advertised, and very clean.

4. Finally, and this may piss some people off, but in general, our most difficult guest experiences are with older guests. In general, they seem to not "get it", and honestly, I had more fun hosting when the average age of our guests was much younger than it is today. And I'm bringing this up because I think the average age of your guests will be older than mine and you're going to deal with stuff more than I do now. Here's an example of a recent guest interaction with a lady who I'm guessing was in her 60's:

Guest reaches out in app via message and asks if we have a way to make coffee. We politely tell her that there is a Keurig coffee maker in the kitchen, along with about 20 coffee pods that she can use of varying flavors. We also screenshot a listing photo and highlight where the Keurig is so she can find it. (The kitchen is small so theres no way she missed it.). She replies that she and her husband only drink coffee from a kettle style coffee maker, uses the exact verbiage that she is "disappointed" in the Keurig machine, and implies that she will leave us a bad review if we don't go buy her the coffee maker she wants. I shut that down. So to retaliate, she tells me that she cannot find the wifi password anywhere. She then tells me that she is a Rice professor, and is trying to use this to somehow make me feel bad that she can't find any of the three places where the wifi password is noted so that I guess I'll have to come down there to show her (1. In the binder labeled READ ME on the kitchen table 3 feet from the Keurig; 2. On the big white board hanging on the wall beside the TV in the living room; 3. In the house manual available in her Airbnb app that was also sent to her with check in instructions). I don't think that I've ever had an interaction with a younger guest like that before.
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Ryan the Temp
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In reply to Red Pear Realty • 4:34p, 2/19/23
AG
We learned right out of the gate that house rules have to be a one-pager at most. We also have small 5x7 instruction cards that are laminated we place near things for which people might need instructions (i.e. coffee maker, alarm clock, etc.) Our guests often comment on how much they appreciate those instead of a big manual - because no one is going to read a big manual anyway.

Thinking about your coffee complainer, we've learned from talking to guests that less of them will be dissatisfied by having a regular coffee maker than having a Keurig. The downside is having to clean it manually if a guest forgets to put the carafe and brew basket in the dishwasher.
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Red Pear Realty
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In reply to Ryan the Temp • 5:00p, 2/19/23
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Yeah our manual is about 3/4 of a printed page and its Page 1. Next come house rules. The house rules are about two pages and we add to them as a guest finds a new way to beat the system. And the rest of the book is local recommendations, restaurants, things to do, etc. I don't really care if they read any of it honestly, its all a resource for them.

Never actually had anyone complain about the Keurig before. Personally, I'm more of a tea drinker myself, but I don't go around complaining when places only offer bags when I prefer loose leaf (or when they offer none at all). I think this lady was just on a tear.
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Ryan the Temp
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In reply to Red Pear Realty • 7:03p, 2/19/23
AG
A really good look into the minds of nightmare hosts is to join Air Hosts Forum. There's a lot of good collaborative stuff on there, but half of it is like Nextdoor. People *****ing about how their guests didn't read the 800-page house rules and spend 15 hours cleaning before checking out.

To the OP - you actually should check out Air Hosts Forum and talk to some of the folks who have rentals like you are considering.
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Red Pear Realty
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In reply to Ryan the Temp • 7:38p, 2/19/23
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People are crazy for sure
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schwack schwack
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7:45a, 2/20/23
AG
We have several long term rentals. First, I think location is key for bookings on the short term stuff. We are in a small East TX town with one major tourist event each year. We bought a house a couple of years ago right before that event that runs a couple of months, so we decided to try it as an AirBnB. It took quite a bit of money to furnish it between the actual furniture, linens, kitchen stuff, etc. but we had it looking great & it was extremely comfortable with everything people would need. Even a couple coffee prep choices!

We had a great couple of months. Overall, we had pretty good luck on the guests, but be prepared - they lie. About pretty much everything - number of guests, smoking, PETS. The last straw for us was a couple in town for a funeral. They begged us to allow their small dog who would be kenneled while inside & fed outside (we have a fenced yard) when they were out. We had a camera on the driveway pointed towards the front yard/driveway - of course it was noted in our listing per rules. Soon after they arrived, another 2 cars showed up with several people and another 2 dogs. Those people stayed the night - some sleeping on the living room furniture which is gross to me. When they left, there was dog food spilled all over the dining room/kitchen, vomit behind the Christmas tree,dog hair on beds & furniture + they used some of the bed pillows for dog beds in a corner. When confronted - they said none of it was true.

They were our last straw. That and when we really looked at the expenses it didn't make sense for us. Lawncare, electricity, gas, water/trash, fast internet - about $450/month even when vacant. Now we have great tenants in there & no bills - all income.

All that said, we have an office building in a cute mixed residential, historic neighborhood that we use for our office & storage. We just turned about half of it in to a really sweet 1/1 furnished apartment that we've moved into while renovating our house. We might consider doing 3 month minimum rentals when we are done with it. We don't go into the office every day & we made separate entrances, etc. We are paying all of the bills for the building anyway, so in this case, it would be to our benefit to collect some rent on it to at least cover our utilities. If that works out as planned, we'll do quite well on it. Won't bother us at all if empty either - we'll use it for visiting friends & family like a spare bedroom.






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mwp02ag
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7:48a, 2/20/23
AG
We started in Oct 2019 with two 1/1 apartments near the Pearl in SA and have been Superhost just about from the start with over 350 reviews. I can count the number of bad stays on one hand. We are breaking ground on septic install at our Nueces River property in the next week or so and will have two RV pads with full hook ups to list as STRs by April. We're also going to build out a shipping container tiny cabin once the RV pads are up and running.

As I stated on the other thread, I think a reasonably priced cabin with some acreage for walking, within 2 hour drive of a major metro should do ok for you. If you have an amenity like a river or State Park nearby even better. If you have not done so, just go look at AirBNB front page to see the kind of places they are promoting. They are pushing for more remote and unique stays. That and the problems STR are creating in vacation towns and the changes from HOAs and city governments are the writing on the wall to me. We have one that does awesome and one that lags behind, we're working to covert that one to a mid term furnished apartment and may go back to long term this summer.

To reiterate what everyone else is saying, you can't write your instructions and communication dumb enough for everyone. You can't satisfy everyone. You will get stupid people who give you a 4 star for location because the neighbors dog barked all night. Oddly enough we have had 4 star reviews from two people who didn't like our coffee, we have a pour over with unlimited "gourmet' grounds, almost everyone else loves it. We just got a 4 star review for accuracy because we state "short walk to Riverwalk" and our guest said it took them 45 minutes to walk to the Riverwalk. It's a .6 mile walk to La Gloria and we provide a map for that route, they decided to walk to someplace downtown to get on.

I'm always looking to chat about how to improve our STR listings and grow if anyone wants to chat you can email me at figtreehomessa at Google Mail. I've had some great discussions with other host from posting here.
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Chipotlemonger
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9:15a, 2/20/23
AG
This is an extremely interesting thread! Great contributions.
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CS78
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10:08a, 2/20/23
Wow, some very valuable info! A lot to think about.

Seems like logistics is always the biggest variable on these types of things. One property is 32 acres on the Navasota river, south of College Station. And the other is 72 acres right by lake Somerville. Finding reliable cleaning people would probably be a never ending battle.

Also, I'm undecided if I would want to grant access to the entire property due to liability. The last thing Id need is a child falling in the river or the Somerville property has an old sand pit with some cliffs. Things that would both draw the interest of any guest and increase the potential for an accident.

I like the idea of RV hookups. But instead of people having to set up in a park, give them some space. Clear out some 1-2 acre areas under the oak trees, picnic table, fire pit, good sized covered porch. Both properties have water wells and electricity is no problem.

It just kind of eats me up that I have land sitting there costing me money every month when I could be making at least something off of it. I considered building long term rentals but dont want tenants messing up the hunting during season. If Im going to do that, I might as well just sell them and buy more houses in town. Kinda defeats the point of owning it to start with.

Is there a good place to research market demand for RV hookup/ pads? What could something like that rent for?
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Ryan the Temp
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In reply to CS78 • 10:20a, 2/20/23
AG
Quote:
Also, I'm undecided if I would want to grant access to the entire property due to liability. The last thing Id need is a child falling in the river or the Somerville property has an old sand pit with some cliffs. Things that would both draw the interest of any guest and increase the potential for an accident.
This is a good question for AirBnB to answer with regard to the Host Protection Plan (translation: insurance). AirBnB covers me for anything that might happen to a guest or their stuff while on my property. Granted the property is only 6,000 SF, so obviously large acreage is a different animal entirely. It is possible AirBnB would cover you, but my guess is you'd have to spell out some things about safety pretty clearly for your guests.
Quote:
You will get stupid people who give you a 4 star for location because the neighbors dog barked all night.
The only 4-star review I've ever received was because I asked a guest to pull his vehicle forward three feet so the trash could get picked up.
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schwack schwack
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In reply to CS78 • 10:58a, 2/20/23
AG
Quote:
I like the idea of RV hookups. But instead of people having to set up in a park, give them some space. Clear out some 1-2 acre areas under the oak trees, picnic table, fire pit, good sized covered porch. Both properties have water wells and electricity is no problem.

Some friends of ours have done just that except restricting to vintage RVS + they have some they have renovated to rent. They have gotten national coverage & rank high on tons of lists. Fancy, for sure, but they are usually booked up. Tons of money & work went into it.

https://therangevtr.com/

Here's another one.

https://www.deadcatranchtx.com/

These are like full time jobs though, for sure - not passive at all.
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mwp02ag
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In reply to CS78 • 11:01a, 2/20/23
AG
CS78 said:
I like the idea of RV hookups. But instead of people having to set up in a park, give them some space. Clear out some 1-2 acre areas under the oak trees, picnic table, fire pit, good sized covered porch. Both properties have water wells and electricity is no problem.
Its a good way to test the waters with a limited capex expenditure. You can even do it without septic but that does limit the number of days an RV can stay obviously. I've even seen primitive camp sites with those amenities listed on airbnb, doesn't have to be for RVs.

I searched both airbnb and google maps for RV sites around my land to set the price. We're going to be $35-55/night depending on time of year. I think mine will be popular during summer for 3-4 day weekends and the occasional week stay for those looking for affordable vacations near SA. I plan on trying to get a pair of snowbirds during fall-winter months and think I'll get $500/m plus electric starting out.

We're going to have an umbrella policy in place once we get the RV spots up and running.
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EclipseAg
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In reply to Red Pear Realty • 11:15a, 2/20/23
AG
Red Pear Realty said:
Another issue is that broken items must be identified before the next guest checks in, or the past guest who broke them is no longer responsible. So better hope your cleaner is competent enough or trained enough to call out if something is broken (TV?) or else you are **** out of luck.
This was a major issue for us and we even had a crew led by the same person for several years who supposedly knew the house, etc.

In my experience, the best and most successful hosts are folks who go into it as a business, who understand hospitality and anticipate what guests need and want, and who have no emotional ties to the property itself.


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Diggity
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In reply to mwp02ag • 11:48a, 2/20/23
AG
mwp02ag said:
To reiterate what everyone else is saying, you can't write your instructions and communication dumb enough for everyone. You can't satisfy everyone. You will get stupid people who give you a 4 star for location because the neighbors dog barked all night. Oddly enough we have had 4 star reviews from two people who didn't like our coffee, we have a pour over with unlimited "gourmet' grounds, almost everyone else loves it. We just got a 4 star review for accuracy because we state "short walk to Riverwalk" and our guest said it took them 45 minutes to walk to the Riverwalk. It's a .6 mile walk to La Gloria and we provide a map for that route, they decided to walk to someplace downtown to get on.
honestly, as a short term renter, I would want to know that info
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TXTransplant
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In reply to Diggity • 12:08p, 2/20/23
As someone who likes Airbnbs but has become increasingly frustrated with owner/host demands, this thread is very informative and eye-opening. Basically, like everything else in life, the PITA renters ruin it for the rest of us.

The dogs barking thing reminds me of a stay we had on the Big Island in Hawaii. House was great, and the view was spectacular. But the neighborhood was, well, eclectic.

The house next door was only partially complete and had been abandoned. There was a colony of feral cats living in it when we stayed. I've since read reviews that homeless people have started squatting in it. This is a house directly on the Pacific Ocean.

The house across the street was occupied by a middle-aged man with quite a few old/abandoned cars in the front yard. Whenever we would leave our house, we would see 4 or 5 massive dogs (I can't remember the exact number) lounging on a second story balcony. The dogs were Great Danes, or something mixed with that. They were huge; easily well over 100 lbs each.

One day my son and I went for a walk and the dogs were in the front yard instead of on the balcony. I was wary of them, so we stayed on our side of the street.

We hadn't even left the driveway of our home when we were surrounded by the entire pack of snarling, growling dogs. I was absolutely terrified. I knew better than to run, but other than that I had no idea what to do. I honestly thought my son and I were going to be mauled to death.

My son had the presence of mind to muster up his most confident, authoritative voice and start telling them "No" and "Back down" and things like that.

At that point, the guy in the house must have heard the commotion, and he came out. He started yelling at the dogs, who started ripping each other apart. Then he maced them.

We took the distraction as an opportunity to run up on the porch. The guy never even really acknowledged us, and he certainly didn't apologize. If anything, he seemed annoyed that he had to restrain his attack dogs.

I did contact the hosts after this happened, and she seemed shocked. She said nothing like this had ever happened before and the guy and his dogs had always been nice.

When it came time to write the review, I thought long and hard about including this incident. It was a lovely property, and our stay was perfect in every other way. Ultimately, I left out the part about nearly being mauled to death, and I'm still not sure if that was the right decision.
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htxag09
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In reply to TXTransplant • 3:03p, 2/20/23
AG
TXTransplant said:
As someone who likes Airbnbs but has become increasingly frustrated with owner/host demands, this thread is very informative and eye-opening. Basically, like everything else in life, the PITA renters ruin it for the rest of us.
I'd say it's both PITA renters and PITA home owners. We've stayed in several AirBnB's (also rented out our own home as an Airbnb several years ago) and seems more and more are obviously people who don't know what they're doing and just trying to make a buck. Or they're intentionally trying to take advantage of people.

One that comes to mind is a bachelor party in Miami. A place on the canals, near the beach, obviously advertised and meant to pack in party crowds. Aka multiple beds in every room, garage converted to bedrooms, etc. A pool, big deck with TV, pool table, ping pong, etc. in the backyard.

Well we check in and the first house rule is nobody is allowed to be outside after 8 pm and we have to keep our voices down inside, there are audio level monitors in the house, or we can be fined/kick out. WTF?
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Medaggie
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10:49a, 2/21/23
I have a VRBO rental going for $1000+/nt in summer and another 500+/nt. Both gross 100k+ and 50K+ respectively. Like everything else in life, the amount of work or PITA depends on how you structure it. We purchased these places for personal use then VRBO to defer some of the costs of ownership. We may use the places 4-6 times a year. As our goal was to defer some costs and not intended to be money makers we

1. Hired a local property manager that handles everything
2. I do booking to manage group expectations
3. We have dedicated cleaners for both places and I would be happy to pay top prices to have someone reliable/does a good job
4. All minor repairs done by a handy man
5. All HVAC/plumbing done by large contractors who are reliable
6. Lawn care and almost every other maintenance contracted out.
7. I fix or buy new anything that wears/tears.
8. I make sure the place is stocked.
9. Floors are porcelin, less maintenance. Furniture are not expensive so if someone breaks it, no biggie. VRBO has insurance I require them to buy so to replace any damage.

Yes, I now make a good amount but am happy to spend an extra 10k/yr for good workers who are reliable.

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MAS444
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12:04p, 2/21/23
AG
Ryan the Temp (and Jamie)-

Yours is a 1 BR or studio - right? Any thoughts on what $/night our nice 2/1 in same area (Woodland Heights) could get? And/or whether it would be booked as often? Considering doing a STR instead of longer term lease next door.
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MAS444
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In reply to Medaggie • 12:06p, 2/21/23
AG
I've been thinking about doing the same with a lake/river property. Mind telling where your property is and/or what kind? Mountains, beach, lake, city, etc?
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Red Pear Realty
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In reply to MAS444 • 12:42p, 2/21/23
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I have four (3/2's) and we just opened a 2/1 in the Heights and we just got our first booking at $200 a night.
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Medaggie
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In reply to MAS444 • 1:09p, 2/21/23
MAS444 said:
I've been thinking about doing the same with a lake/river property. Mind telling where your property is and/or what kind? Mountains, beach, lake, city, etc?
I have 3 places on Lake LBJ with the river on the back yard. When I first bought 6 yrs ago, the prices were much more reasonable but skyrocketed with Covid b/c people were booked throughout the yr then it became a cap rate valuation. I think current economics will bring rent rates down with higher vacancies. Maybe there is a deal to be had but its hard to make any $$$ when decent homes are 1.5M starting.
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HomeschoolPrincipal
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8:46p, 2/21/23
AG
Just answered a phone call where I had to change the thermostat from my phone because they couldn't figure it out!
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Ryan the Temp
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In reply to MAS444 • 12:21a, 2/22/23
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MAS444 said:
Ryan the Temp (and Jamie)-

Yours is a 1 BR or studio - right? Any thoughts on what $/night our nice 2/1 in same area (Woodland Heights) could get? And/or whether it would be booked as often? Considering doing a STR instead of longer term lease next door.
Mine is a true 1-bedroom apartment. I honestly have no idea what a 2/1 would go for because I've never researched the market. My rental goes for a minimum $73/night and my occupancy rate is about 78%. I think your target customer would probably be families with older kids, but again, I've never looked at that market. We get our share of couples with one or two small kids, but small kids are less likely to dislike a fold-out sofa bed. The largest portion of my guests are traveling solo for work.
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Ryan the Temp
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10:21p, 2/23/23
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Y'all should be jealous of the most luxurious AirBnB property in all of Austin.

NM. AirBnB deleted it.
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