Lone Survivor question

14,064 Views | 32 Replies | Last: 12 yr ago by 7iron
Guitarsoup
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AG
For those of you that have served and are familiar with the story:

Those that haven't, here is the background for the question:

Four SEALs were inserted near a Taliban village in the mountains of Afghanistan. While on a recon mission, a group of three goat herders stumble upon them. They capture them and tie them up. They cannot get in touch with command to get air/ground support.


They say they have three options:
1. Kill the goat herders
2. Cut them loose and let them go, knowing they will alert the Taliban force nearby that has 50-200 soldiers
3. Leave them tied up over night, knowing they will probably freeze.

So obviously, they followed the ROE and cut them loose, and it cost Murphy, Dietz and Axelson their lives.


Why not this fourth option?

Keep the hands tied of those three goat herders and consider the mission objective blown. March the prisoners up to the top of the mountain where they could then get in communication with Bagram and then let the herders go after they have been rescued or when they get reinforcements to fight the Taliban force? Why is it not an option to just keep them tied up until the SEALs are safe?
Marauder Blue 6
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I'm glad you posted this. I had this exact conversation at work today. I find it puzzling that this option wasn't considered, or if it was, why it was abandoned. Tie the goats up and tie the herders together. Walk the herders to the nearest exfil point. Let them go as you fly way.
SemperGigEm
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Harder to blame the evil liberals in the book with that option...
JABQ04
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I would assume because 4 men are trying to move 3 men under guard over horrible terrain, where speed is now a major issue. Plus if you do take contact with three detainees, you are now obligated to safeguard them as well as fight for your life. If they scatter and attempt to escape, you can't shoot them. They have displayed no hostile intent and are merely detained for your elements convenience.


I read the book several years ago and didn't remember the goat herders having a radio on them. I thought it was odd that they were let go with the radio. At that time, a radio was a big indicator that some one was hostile or working for the bad guys. When I deployed to Iraq in 07, we were told to look for radios around IED sites as indicators of an observer. Anyone with a radio was captured and detained.


[This message has been edited by Jabq04 (edited 1/13/2014 6:49p).]
Rabid Cougar
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Goat herders didn't have a radio with them in the book.


Rabid Cougar
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message dupicated.




[This message has been edited by Rabid Cougar (edited 1/14/2014 11:04a).]
Guitarsoup
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quote:
I would assume because 4 men are trying to move 3 men under guard over horrible terrain, where speed is now a major issue


No one is probably looking for the herders. They will want to move quickly, but these guys have spent their entire life walking these mountains. They will probably be fine. I bet they had at least a day before anyone went to look for them.
BBRex
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I haven't read the book (but plan to), but from the movie, I got the feeling that they misjudged the terrain. They thought they had a quick trip to the summit, only to find it was a false summit and had a farther hike than they planned. Thinking they were close might have made them choose moving fast rather than taking captives with them.
B-1 IDMA 05
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I was wondering why they didn't leave 2 guys to guard them and 2 go up to the top of the mountain to get comms, intresting decision.
Teacher_Ag
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In Bravo Two Zero the same issue presents itself, the same decision is made and with the same result. New ROE, spec ops shoot goat herders.
Texas Forever
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quote:
I haven't read the book (but plan to), but from the movie, I got the feeling that they misjudged the terrain. They thought they had a quick trip to the summit, only to find it was a false summit and had a farther hike than they planned. Thinking they were close might have made them choose moving fast rather than taking captives with them.

I read the book, seen the movie and watched multiple interviews and I don't think there has ever been much of an answer on it. I think this seems pretty logical of an answer here, just off speculation.
Texas Forever
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Also with regards to the false summit, I'm assuming they thought they would be able get some kind of comms out once they reached the summit.
Rabid Cougar
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Those Afghan kids run up and down the mountains like they aren't even there.
SafetySam79
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quote:
Those Afghan kids run up and down the mountains like they aren't even there.

That was truly amazing. I'm assuming that that one kid in the movie was the real deal and not an actor?
Guitarsoup
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The kid running down was like the sandal-mountain parkour king.
OldSaltAg
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In the book Marcus mentions they didn't have rope to tie the goatherds with. I think they simply sat them down and kept their weapons on them while they discussed the options. I believe in the movie the goatherds were tied up with rope or zip ties.
Jock 07
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Haven't yet read the book either but need too. For those of you that have. Did they really almost behead Luttrell? Also last night I looked up the head taliban guy on the internet and what I read was that he was killed in Pakistan when he tried to rush a checkpoint and not by the guy who took Luttrell in as portrayed in the movie. Was the village scene at the end embellished some?
Rabid Cougar
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Answers a lot of the "differences" in the book and the movie.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/01/10/lone_survivor_accuracy_fact_vs_fiction_in_the_mark_wahlberg_and_peter_berg.html


[This message has been edited by Rabid Cougar (edited 1/18/2014 7:10p).]
Hobbes01
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Just saw the movie over the weekend and had the exact same question as the OP. Even if they didn't have rope or zip ties as the movie implied, surely they could find a strap from some of their gear to use instead.

The other two options I considered were 1) take the goat herders shoes/sandals with the thought it would have to slow them down given the terrain if they did make a dash to the village or 2) hobble the two younger herders (smash an ankle with the butt of a rifle). Not sure if that would violate ROE or other prisoner protocol, but once again the intent would be to slow their descent to the village.

[This message has been edited by Hobbes01 (edited 1/21/2014 3:49p).]
BurnetAggie99
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After they let them go I don't understand why they didn't try humping out instead of spending the night on top of the summit. I would of put as much distance as I could between my team and the Taliban troops. I enjoyed the movie but this movie takes a huge crap on the Marines and as a Marine have a issue with it. Here is some factual detail taken from fellow Marine in country at the time all this took place.

There were 5 Marines killed by hostile in Afghanistan during the ENTIRE WAR at that point (and a total of 20 Marines if you add non-hostile fire incidents—most of them not even in Afghanistan. Kevin Joyce, was the only Marine killed the week before Operation Red Wings. He drowned in the Pech River.

2nd Battalion, 3rd Marines (Island Warriors, YUT) were the only Marine Corps infantry unit stationed in Afghanistan at that time. Our area of operations included Laghman, Nuristan, Kunar, and Nangarhar provinces for the most part.

And in fact, after Operation Red Wings, it was a Marine Corps op—Operation Whalers—that routed the enemy militia from the area and allowed the 2005 Afghan Parliamentary Elections to take place in the entirety of Kunar province for the first time in 33 years. Not bad for 600 guys and an area of operations more than 10,000 square miles. In fact, the Marines destroyed so much of Ahmad Shah’s militia that he was unable to conduct any more operations in that area for a long time. There’s a fine book written by Ed Darack that will fill you in on the background of Red Wings, Whalers, and Kunar province and it’s well worth the read.

[This message has been edited by Burnetaggie99 (edited 1/21/2014 10:34p).]
Guitarsoup
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How exactly did the movie take a crap on the Marines? I don't even remember the Marines being brought up.
BurnetAggie99
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One there was not 20 Marines killed like what was claimed and two there is no information in the movie about 2/3 which I explained what they accomplished in my 1st post. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed the movie but feel Berg didn't tell the whole story here and left out all the details that included the Marines of 2/3.

[This message has been edited by Burnetaggie99 (edited 1/21/2014 10:48p).]
BurnetAggie99
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Pickup a copy of Wings and Whalers - The Marine Corps' Battle for Freedom in Afghanistan By
Ed Darack.

About the book:
In late June 2005, media sources recounted the tragic story of nineteen U.S. special operations personnel who died at the hands of insurgent / terrorist leader Ahmad Shah- and the lone survivor of Shah's ambush-deep in the Hindu Kush Mountains of Afghanistan. The harrowing events of Operation Red Wings marked an important-yet widely misreported-chapter in the Global War on Terror, the full details of which the public burned to learn.

Victory Point reveals the complete, as-yet untold, story of Operation Red Wings (often mis-referenced as "Operation Redwing"), and the follow-on mission, Operation Whalers. Together, these two U.S. Marine Corps operations (that in the case of Red Wings utilized Navy SEALs for its opening phase) unfurl not as a mission gone terribly wrong, but of a complex and difficult campaign that ultimately saw the demise of Ahmad Shan and his small army of barbarous fighters.

Due to the valor, courage, and commitment of the 2nd Battalion of the 3rd Marine Regiment in the summer of 2005, Afghanistan was able to hold free elections that Fall. Here is the inspiring true account of heroism, duty, and brotherhood between Marines fighting the War on Terror.




[This message has been edited by Burnetaggie99 (edited 1/21/2014 10:55p).]
Tango Mike
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if you got some kind of "crap on Marines" out of that movie, you were looking to get butthurt
BBRex
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quote:
One there was not 20 Marines killed like what was claimed and two there is no information in the movie about 2/3 which I explained what they accomplished in my 1st post


If they got the number of Marines that were killed wrong, that sucks. But I don't know why they would bring up a Marine operation that had nothing to do with the story.
BurnetAggie99
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Like I stated earlier if you want the real accounts of operation red wings go read Victory Point: Operations Red Wings and Whalers - The Marine Corps' Battle for Freedom in Afghanistan.

Operation Red Wings was conceived by the 2nd Battalion of the 3rd Marine Regiment (2/3) of the U.S. Marine Corps based on an operational model developed by 2/3's sister battalion, the 3rd Battalion of the 3rd Marine Regiment (3/3) which had preceded the 2nd Battalion in their combat deployment. It utilized special operations forces (SOF) units and assets, including members of the U.S. Navy SEALs.

When the 2nd Battalion of the 3rd Marine Regiment (2/3) took the Stars model and developed the specifics of it, 2/3's operations officer, Major Thomas Wood, instructed an assistant operations officer, 1st Lieutenant Lance Seiffert, to compose a list of hockey team names.

2/3's battalion staff immediately began planning Operation Red Wings as soon as they arrived in Afghanistan. Lieutenant Colonel Andrew MacMannis, 2/3's battalion commander, and his staff, wanted to maintain the operational tempo set by 3/3. 2/3's Operations Officer, Major Thomas Wood, began planning Red Wings off the Stars base, which was a five phase operation. During this time, 2/3's Intelligence Officer, Captain Scott Westerfield, focused further on learning about Ahmad Shah. His overall intelligence picture of Shah took a substantial leap when 2nd Lieutenant Regan Turner, a platoon commander with 2/3's "Whiskey Company" – a Weapons Company augmented to function like an infantry line company, gathered a wealth of human intelligence about Shah during a patrol, including his full name: Ahmad Shah Dara-I-nur (Ahmad Shah of the Valley of the Enlightened ones); his birthplace, the Kuz Kunar District of Nangarhar Province; his primary alias: Ismael; his chief allegiance: Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, who was based out of the Shamshatoo Refugee Camp near Peshawar, Pakistan; his team's size: fifty to one hundred fighters; and his aspirations: to impede the upcoming elections and attempt to aid a resurgent Taliban in the region. Although Shah was a relatively unknown entity in the region, he apparently held regional aspirations and possibly had the assistance of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. 2nd Lieutenant Turner also gathered a number of photographs of Shah.

Further intelligence, including human intelligence and signals intelligence indicated that Shah based his insurgent / terrorist operations out of some small structures outside of the village of Chichal, high on the slopes of Sawtalo Sar mountain in the upper Korangal Valley, approximately 20 miles to the west of Kunar's provincial capital, Asadabad. Using imagery Intelligence, taken from a UAV on June 17, 2005, Westerfield identified likely structures used for housing his team, IED making, and overwatch of the area below, for IED strikes. The intelligence staff identified four Named Areas of Interest, or NAIs containing specific structures in which Shah might be using.

These Named Areas of Interest and specific buildings were determined by analyzing and processing a number of instances of a variety of intelligence, including signals intelligence, human Intelligence, and imagery Intelligence. Westerfield and his staff determined that Shah and his men had been responsible for approximately 11 incidents against American, Coalition, and Government of Afghanistan entities, including IED strikes and small arms ambushes. They determined that Shah and his men would be occupying the area of Chichal in late June, a time of low lunar illumination. The operation would require a helicopter insert of forces to cordon the area and search for Shah and his men, and they sought to conduct this operation at night, after positive identification of Shah by a Marine Corps Scout / Sniper team, which would walk into the area under cover of darkness some nights before.

As has been the case with certain other military operations, important aspects of Red Wings have been widely misrepresented. I'll address these here, roughly in chronological order.

Before I get into the details, I want to pass along a paraphrased quote that a number of U.S. Marine Corps commanders (mostly senior field grade and general grade, but some junior field grade and company grade--as well as a large number of enlisted, of all ranks and billets) have stated to me during media embed projects with their unit(s): U.S. Marines want the full story of what they do to always be told to the public, accurately, be that story good, bad, or somewhere in between--meaning that they want it told without exaggeration, omission, or fabrication.

JUNE 2007: RELEASE OF THE BOOK LONE SURVIVOR
In early June of 2007, the Washington Post published this article. In the same week, the book Lone Survivor: The Eyewitness Account of Operation Redwing and the Lost Heroes of Seal Team 10 was released. Marcus Luttrell was listed as the author, with Patrick Robinson listed as a contributor. I read the article in the Washington Post with great interest, and was stunned by the omission of Marine Corps involvement, the misstatement of the name of the operation, the exaggerated enemy numbers, the outright fabrication that "U.S. intelligence officials believed [Ahmad] Shah was close to Osama bin Laden," and among other items, the account that Lieutenant Michael Murphy, the leader of the four man Naval Special Operations reconnaissance and surveillance team of which Luttrell was a member, put up to vote whether to kill unarmed civilians who soft compromised them. No "vote" was ever mentioned in Luttrell's after action report.

I immediately ordered Lone Survivor, thinking that the book would provide much more detail than the Post article did. I also contacted all of the members of 2/3 who played roles in Red Wings, asking them if they'd been contacted about providing after action reports or interviews for Lone Survivor. None had. I read the book, thinking that I could possibly use information in it as source material for VICTORY POINT. Information in Lone Survivor, however strayed so substantially from Luttrell's after action report, and so much general information in it was so inaccurate that I could not use it as a source. For instance, the book describes "hundreds" of Taliban, when in Luttrell's after action report, he stated 20 to 35. While analysis of intelligence later revealed a number somewhere in the range of 8 to 10, the Navy used a number more in line with Luttrell's original after action on the official Medal of Honor citation for Lieutenant Murphy: "BETWEEN 30 AND 40 ENEMY FIGHTERS....

One of the greatest factual problems with Lone Survivor is the omission of the role the Marines of 2/3 played, and how NAVSOF elements actually fit into the operation. Instead of illustrating that this was a multi-phase Marine Corps operation where NAVSOF was to play roles in the opening phases (mandated as such by CJSOTF-A in order for 2/3 to get low-illumination helicopter support), Robinson ignored Marine Corps involvement altogether, and drafted a narrative that Red Wings (what he mistakenly called Redwing) was a special operation mission targeting one of Osama bin Laden's top lieutenants. He mentions Marines in the area only in passing, stating that they'd been victims of IED (improvised explosive device) strikes.

Texas Forever
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If you really want to feel better about it read Service by Marcus Luttrell or American Sniper by Chris Kyle where numerous times throughout those books they talk about how the Marines saved their ass. Otherwise its not that big a deal, in the exact mission that was comprimised not a Marine was involved so stop getting butt hurt over one little change by Hollywood.
BBRex
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With the grand and storied history of the Marine Corps, I'm sure it will survive just fine without mention in a popular movie. You're trying way too hard to find something to be upset about.
Teacher_Ag
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Just saw it...amazing movie.

My question is...was it just for the sake of story telling or did none of those four speak the local dialect? With Marcus at that village toward the end it would have come in handy to know some basic words and I'm surprised that someone of his caliber wouldn't/didn't. Any insight into that?

Those guys are the epitome of professionalism and courage....no other way to express my feelings about it.
Rabid Cougar
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"My question is...was it just for the sake of story telling or did none of those four speak the local dialect? With Marcus at that village toward the end it would have come in handy to know some basic words and I'm surprised that someone of his caliber wouldn't/didn't. Any insight into that?"

Not sure about thier knowledge of Pashtu. However,from personal experience, you pick up the basic commands like "Stop" "Sit" "Come here" "Thank You" and colorful expletives but to pick it enough for conversational purposes is pretty hard. 9 times out of 10 you have a terp with you for that purpose. Make's it much easier to gather information and get your point across. I know that the ODA operators in the area speak it very fluently.

[This message has been edited by Rabid Cougar (edited 1/23/2014 12:42p).]
denied
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Rabid,

I don't know what team(s) you were with but the guys I know/knew could only do a handful of commands. The one guy whose language actually was Pashtun had no clue what was being said around him.
Rabid Cougar
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Don't question that for a minute. Have a coworker who is retired from teams who spent lots of time in the Kunar, can't speak a lick of it. But I do know there were teams running around Khas Kunar in white Ford Rangers in local garb. Sat and watched them question several of my Afghan contractors in Pashtu on site. No English, No Terps. Also lived on the same base as Afghan Commando's and their advisors. I know they used terps but also knew basic commands/phrases.
mts6175
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I finally got a chance to watch Lone Survivor last night and had the same question. But I can't help but wonder if it had to do with the several references in the movie as to how fast the Afghans moved up the mountain, if it wasn't the concern with it being 4 vs. 3 to do that.
7iron
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I read the book, and I watched the movie earlier tonight. I'm sure there are military or ex military reading this and I just want to say thanks to all of you. It is hard to imagine that while I drove my desk in downtown Houston in June - July 2005 those young men were bleeding and dying in those mountains. I can't remember what stressed me out that summer but it sure seems petty and insignificant after taking that movie in and watching the pictures of the soldiers and their families afterward.

[This message has been edited by Matt reed (edited 1/30/2014 10:52p).]
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