My son has been accepted at Texas A&M and has been notified that he has a four year Army ROTC scholarship.
Good news right ? My concern is his weight. He played offensive lineman @ six ft one 236 lbs. He played his junior year at 255 lbs and was just too heavy even though he went against 300 lbs plus D lineman.

The height weight guidelines for Army say he should be 206 lbs. He would need to drop thirty pounds by commissioning time. I know thats plenty of time but I have concerns about this weight issue.
Does it make sense to do ROTC first year and if he doesn't drop to goal weight to pull him out of ROTC ?
Corps of Cadets might get him there but he is a big boned kid who benches 300 lbs. I read where ROTC can drop you anytime for not being at proper weight and if they dropped him lets say his senior year he would owe Army money. A lot of money. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

[This message has been edited by Runner45 (edited 2/1/2014 3:47a).]

The Army also does body fat percentage if you don't meet height/weight requirements. And, unless the calculation method has changed, if your son has a really thick neck he has an advantage on those calculations.

Another thing to consider is that the military is in a bit of a down-sizing phase right now. If he leaves ROTC with the intention of returning when he loses some weight, he might not be able to secure a scholarship. Although it'll still be possible for him to join after college most likely.

There is plenty of time between now and August for him to lose some weight and work on his PT. It won't be easy, but it's absolutely possible if he really wants it. As the previous poster said, it is harder and harder to contract with the military. If he wants to join and already has a scholarship in hand, he should take it.

Have you seen West Point football players? If he is athletically inclined and motivated enough, he went from 255 to 235 to be better at his position, take the oppertunity.

Bigtruck is correct. The age/height/weight table is just a guideline; they can do a Body Fat (BF) tape/calc and if he passes that, he is golden. Key on the BF computation is having a big neck and a relatively tight/small waist. Muscles are good.

Big and strong is better than skinny and weak. Everytime. He will exercise and lose/burn off some excess blubber during his fish year, trust me.

Congrats on your new fish Jones. Never quit. Keep us posted.

[This message has been edited by WBBQ74 (edited 2/1/2014 12:59p).]

I'm 6'2" and never played American Football but I did struggle with my weight the entire time I was in ROTC and while I was an officer. The other thing I hated and struggled with was running.

The Army doesn't care if your son can bench 300lbs or do 100 push ups if he can't break 15:54 on the two mile run. I'm on my phone now while shopping for clothes with my 15 y/o daughter so I'll add more references later.

Hollywood, what your expeience is what worries me. Look forward to what you have to say.

I lost 47 lbs in 17 weeks during initial entry training as an enlisted man. I did gain some of that back as I settled in with a more healthy weight. Seeing as how Army officers tend to be on average even more fit than enlisted members I would assume that he won't have any problem shedding the weight once he is in their exercise program around other motivated individuals. Although a lot of it will be on him and his attitude toward exercise and making healthy lifestyle choices.

Basically, its not something you should worry about. Unless there is an underlying health issue (most don't realize they have it) most do not struggle with weight issues if they put out the effort to get in military shape.

he must be able to pass an APFT and Height and Weight (or pass tape test if he doesn't) to contract and activate the scholarship. That will be done most likely within the first two to three weeks of the semester starting. At least that is the way we do it at my school. If your son has that much muscle, he needs to stop lifting weights and concentrate on cardio and just maintaining his current muscle mass. Most likely he will be given an APFT and weight screening just prior to each semester, to make sure he is in good standing and keep his scholarship. If he fails, he will be put in a suspension of benefits status, which means he stays in ROTC, but the Army will not pay for school. If he fails two semesters in a row, he will be dis-enrolled, and a determination will be made whether he pays the money back, or does four years active duty.

As long as he puts in a moderate amount of effort and doesn't stuff his pillow with candy bars and eat them at night, it shouldn't be too difficult to lose a decent amount of weight as a fish, and keep most (if not all of it) off as a sophomore.

But when he becomes a junior/senior, it becomes a little more difficult to keep the weight off if he doesn't watch what he eats. Or if he enjoys the morning donuts at Duncan. Do they still have morning donuts at Duncan? That place has changed so much since I was a cadet.

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Do they still have morning donuts at Duncan? That place has changed so much since I was a cadet.

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Only if you get there before the qs

No donuts in Duncan. Breakfast hot plates do come with a side of tater tots though.

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No donuts in Duncan. Breakfast hot plates do come with a side of tater tots though.

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What about hashbrowns? Back in the day if you mixed the dry and salty hashbrowns with the runny eggs, you could make something that actually tasted pretty good. And, as a fish, it made scarfing it down without chewing a lot easier.

Finally got to a keyboard so I could type this up. I'm just going to share with you my personal story.

I went to Texas A&M on an Army ROTC Scholarship and subsequently served 5 months Active Duty at Fort Knox, KY (Armor School) and 6 years in the Texas Army National Guard followed by about 2 years of Individual Ready Reserve. My 8 year commitment ended in the final month of peacetime in recent history - August 2001.

As a kid from Puerto Rico who grew up in Alaska and Saudi Arabia, there was never any question that I wanted to serve in the US Military. I wanted to be a USAF pilot until I found out that you have to have 20/20 vision. I applied to the US Air Force Academy and Texas A&M. I narrowly missed getting in to the USAFA but hindsight being 20/20, taking an Army ROTC Scholarship to get a degree in Engineering from Texas A&M was the best possible thing that could have happened to me. The follow up to that was my accessions for Reserve Component and branching into a Combat Arms field.

Not germane to the height/weight conversation per se but, what I want you to talk over with your son is - how serious is he about serving in the Military as an Officer? How badly does he want it? What are his career plans after the Army? I'm of the opinion that you can learn a lot from the Army (or Navy, AF, USMC, etc.). Each branch has their own unique qualities and skills but I find the Army to be excellent for learning how to lead people and how to put systems in place to manage to a desired outcome regardless of the capabilities of the individuals within that system.

My point here is that if your son wants to do this, it will be hard. But, it will be worth it. And getting an Army ROTC scholarship will give him a great leg up on his future. Both professionally and financially. I've been able to do a lot of things due to the fact that I had no debt upon the completion of college. Now I did have to serve for 8 years as an Officer which wasn't easy but it was worthwhile.

So, back to the height/weight situation.

When I finished HS and reported to A&M, I was 6'2", 180 lbs and always felt kind of fat. I've always been good at sit-ups, weak at push-ups and I hate running with a passion. I could run OK but I much prefer hiking. Give me the choice of running 2 miles or hiking 20 miles, I'll take the hike. Growing up, my sports were Baseball, Swimming and Soccer. Like I said earlier, I completely missed playing American Football so I never bulked up like your son in HS.

When I reported to A&M, we had lots of band drills in the hot sun in the afternoon plus lots of running and lots of push-ups. Within the first month, I dropped down to 170 lbs. By the Spring semester, I was back up to 180 lbs. but it was muscle instead of fat. At this point, the height/weight requirements weren't even a consideration. The summer between my Sophomore and Junior year, I lived with my Grandmother in Galveston while I worked a summer job watching dudes pour concrete on I-45. My grandmother cooked for me all the time that summer, and I gained up to 195 lbs. Still not a height/weight problem. Then, the summer between my Junior and Senior year, I lived in College Station because I needed to get caught up on a couple of classes. Well, that summer, a HS buddy and I lived together and pretty much drank beer and ate Macaroni and Cheese from Sam's Club. When I got back to Army ROTC for a weigh-in, I was now over 200 lbs. The screen weight for 17-20 years old and 6'2" was 201. Luckily for me, I had just turned 21 (hence the beer drinking) so the screen weight for ages 21-27 was 206. So this began my life of weighing and taping.

Page 21 of AR 600-9 is where you can find the screen weight information.
http://www.daforms.com/files/r600_9.pdf

So how does this whole weigh-in / tape out situation work?

If you weigh-in and you're below the screen weight, no harm, no foul. Go on about your business. By the way, there are minimum weights and believe it or not, there was a guy in the Aggie Band two years behind me who had to gain weight. I think he was like 6'0" and 135 lbs or something anorexic like that.

If you're over the screen weight, now we have to take a look at the allowable % of body fat for the given age group. This is detailed in Table B-2 on Page 21 of AR 600-9. So, let's say we're talking 21-27 years old, the allowable body fat % is 22%. Now this is where it gets interesting. How the Army calculates body fat%. It all comes down to the delta between the circumference of your waist and the circumference of your neck.

So let's say I have a 36 inch waist and a 17 inch neck, the Army method takes 36, subtracts 17 and yields a "circumference value" of 19.

Now on page 28 of AR 600-9, you take that value and match the column associated with my height (74 inches) and you find the %body fat to be: 16%. That puts me under the allowable value of 22% so I'm in compliance with the height weight standard.

Let's say that I gained a bunch of weight around my midsection and my waist was 39 inches and my neck has slimmed down to 15 1/2 inches. My "circumference value" is now 23.5. Plugging that into the table using 74 inches for the height again, my body fat % shows to be 24% so I'm now out of compliance with the 22% standard.

Once you're out of compliance, you get on a weight control program where you now have to weigh-in more frequently and you have to participate in remedial physical training. Just like therapy, this can be group or individual.

I was pretty fortunate that as a cadet, we had a military advisor who had been in the Aggie Band about 14 years ahead of me. He took a special interest in me and in addition to the required remedial PT, he made me come running with him twice a week. This was a good 3-mile run from The Quad out across the tracks to Research Park and back. Did I mention that I hate running?

With the extra attention, my weight hovered around 202-206 lbs. In preparation for going to ROTC Advanced Camp, I put a little extra effort into it and when I weighed in, I was on 202 lbs. Being under the 206 screen weight meant no tape test so I was plenty happy with that.

After 6 weeks in the field at Fort Lewis, Washington, eating Army chow and working 18 hour days (or whatever), I lost an amazing amount of weight and got down to 192 lbs. That is the lowest I've been in my adult life. At 192, I was anorexic looking. I even put on a pair of jeans that I hadn't worn since 10th Grade.

So, back in the real world, I gained back up to 205-210 lbs or so. A constant struggle to try to get down to 206 prior to commissioning. I made it. It's funny after listening to the Army tell me repeatedly how fat I was, I get a kick out of looking at the pictures of when I graduated from A&M and how relatively skinny I look.

5 months on Active Duty at Fort Knox, similar story. I weighed in at 205-206 every weigh-in. That usually involved a few days worth of starving myself and of course we were doing plenty of PT in the old WWII Barracks area where they filmed "STRIPES".

My next 6 years in the TXARNG were a struggle. The good news was that in the National Guard, we only did our Record APFT and Weigh-In once a year. So, I could cram a little before hand. But by this time, I was up in the tape-test all the time situation.

I gained weight during both of my wife's pregnancies and I still hated running So, I did tape out a few times at 215-219 lbs but, it was a lot of stress to have this situation looming over my head.

Eventually, I didn't tape out and had to go on remedial PT, weight management counseling, etc. What really frustrated me the most was the fact that when things like performance reviews come up, height-weight and APFT performance is a factor. The point I want to make here for your son to consider is that his ability to make weight and his speed in the 2-mile run will be factors in how his leadership is evaluated in the military. These metrics don't mean anything in the civilian world so I've done well in the real world. But it was frustrating having my accomplishments in the field diminished by my height-weight/APFT scores.

I'm sure I've just opened myself up for plenty of ridicule/criticism but... bring it on. I'm a former Army Officer I can take it.

I hope that your son chooses to attend Texas A&M on an Army ROTC Scholarship. That is an experience and opportunity that will serve him well in life.

After considering the weight situation, the next piece of the puzzle is the ability to do well on the Army Physical Fitness Test.

The details are on this scorecard - DA Form 705 dated May 2010
http://armypubs.army.mil/eforms/pdf/a705.pdf

The minimum standard is 60 points in each event. However, if your son really wants to be competitive, 80 points or better in each event is where he needs to aim. And if he can max one or two events, that's even better.

My guess is that at his size, push-ups and sit-ups should be OK but that 2-mile run is going to be a hassle.

At age 17-21, within a 2 minute time limit, he'll need to do 42 push-ups to pass and if he can do 71 push-ups he'll max the event.

For sit-ups, within a 2 minutes time limit, it will be 53 sit-ups to pass and 78 sit-ups to max the event.

Now for the 2-mile run. We're looking at a minimum passing time of 15:54 and 14:24 to get 80 points in the event. Max score is 2 miles in under 13:00.

In all the years of doing Army 2-mile runs, the fastest time I ever turned in was 14:15. That was a freak one-time occurrence. I usually finished somewhere in the mid-15 minutes. At ROTC Advanced Camp, there was a lot of competition and great weather conditions which helped me turn in a 14:45 that day for 75 points in the run.

Now what can be depressing is that the standards change quite a bit based on age and gender. So, while I turned in my 14:45 2-Mile run and was happy with that, on the same day, I remember watching a 27 year old female come across the line with a time over 20 minutes and she still passed the APFT.

Historically, as your age increased, the score requirements decreased. Nowadays, the APFT scores actually require more push-up and sit-up repetitions to achieve the same score as you age from 17-31.

Hope this information helps.

I find it slightly entertaining that all the former BQs are the ones discussing their issues with height/weight standards.

BQ ?

Band Queers

Everyone else already explained it, but I will chime in to reinforce.

As long as he can pass the PT test, and the tape test, His Height/Weight doesn't matter.

In my opinion, height/weight standards are utter garbage.

My buddy who was CO was a crossfit god and weighed well over the weight standard for his height just because he was so dense with muscle.

They had to tape him...Honestly I don't get it, you can look at the guy and tell he is in shape.

He is about to become a special forces officer, but that goes to show you even high speed kids get **** for height/weight.

Given so many here are former Corps of Cadets what should a kid from rural NE North Carolina expect from College Station ?

About the same weather in the fall. Hot and sticky. Better BBQ, though.

Tell me about Fish year. Is the whole year miserable or are there good times ?

I went through Parris Island and can't say it was fun. What can my son expect ? I have no idea what its like at A&M.

Hard, both mentally and physically, but you forge bonds with the other fish in your outfit that will last for lifetime. Going to classes and making grades is hard enough on its own. Your Corps outfit is your extended family, gets you thru the tough times. Demands much but gives back more. Not for everyone but then the hard things done are the ones appreciated.

Fish year is not the same as basic training. Sophomores are not the same as Drills; they are learning leadership skills right along with the fish they supervise, only 1 year removed from the exact same situation. The Corps is referred to sometimes as a big leadership laboratory. You learn to follow and then to lead as the years roll by. Once that senior on contract graduates and accepts that 2LT commission he/she has had hundreds and hundreds of hours of leadership practice, giving/taking orders. Some of which might seem trite or silly but perceived as serious at the time. You learn how to get things done, how YOU get things done. What works and what doesn't. Basic people skills. Life skills that are universal and translatable both inside and outside the military environment.

Plus he will make life long friends, real friends. The 'marry you' and 'bury you' type of friends. Priceless treasures for life. I still keep track of guys I survived the Aggie Band with over 40 years ago. Best friends of my life.

Your kid can get a decent university education/degree at lots of places. And can earn a Army ROTC 2LT commission at lots of places, too. Using a 4 year Army ROTC scholarship at Texas A&M along with the excellent leadership experience opportunity that the Corps of Cadets provides, positions your son to get the best of both worlds - assuming he studies and develops his mind and body to the right purposes. Aggie officers are known throughout the Army. High benchmark.

And, assuming he has the will power and fortitude to handle being just another fish Jones - like thousands and thousands before him over the decades, he will have a blast.




[This message has been edited by WBBQ74 (edited 2/4/2014 8:51a).]

Fish year. It's all what you make it. For me, the good times far exceeded the bad ones. My son had the similar experience, maybe even too many good times his fish year, but he, like me, survived.

I think today too many parents get all excited when their little cupcake feels mistreated or slighted.

My little cupcake has been in the sandbox for about 5 months now trying to keep his men safe and achieve their mission. His best day today is probably ten times worse than anything he experienced his fish year.

Your son will do fine, he'll come out of it with friends and memories that will last a lifetime.

Do freshmen in Corps of Cadets have enough time to play rugby at A&M ?

Yes, in E-1 we had at least one guy who played Rugby all 4 years.

My fish year in my outfit was not too bad.

But that was comparing it to being on the Fish Drill Team [FDT].

FDT was TOUGH! Physically AND mentally stressful.

I was commissioned NAvy as NFO. It was good, even though I was not a good aviator, I managed.