Sloppy Cadets

7,613 Views | 47 Replies | Last: 11 yr ago by HollywoodBQ
ChasB
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The Feb 20th 2015 issue of the San Antonio Express News had a photo of four cadets saluting the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Dempsy. The appearance of the four cadets (fish or p-heads) is embarrassing. Each cadets trousers looks as if they have been slept in for six weeks. Plus, it is apparent that the uniforms have not been properly tailored as evidenced by the too long pants legs and the poorly fit blouses. Does the Cadet Corps still conduct inspections? Why would these cadets be selected to greet the General without passing even a cursory inspection? Even cookie pusher ROTC units look better than this group. That General Dempsey witnessed this lack of military appearance is deplorable and the fact that the photo appeared in a public newspaper further degrades our Corps of Cadets in the eyes of the public.

'61FlyGuy
WBBQ74
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You mean this one?



One break on the winter pants, looks fine to me. Or would you rather have the Aggie Dance team?
CT'97
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I'm not sure what you are seeing. They are saluting, that pulls the coats out of alignment. One of the cadet's pants are a little long, but not overly so and i'm sure that the way they were issued to him.
Forrest Gump
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quote:
That General Dempsey witnessed this lack of military appearance is deplorable and the fact that the photo appeared in a public newspaper further degrades our Corps of Cadets in the eyes of the public.


Really???
CanyonAg77
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You've posted exactly once since you joined TexAgs in 2006, and this is what you chose to post?
A2Aggie60
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There was a picture posted on the front page of the San Antonio Express which showed the first four Cadets in the Honor Detail as the General was leaving. If BQ 74 had seen this picture, I doubt if you would have been so quick to find fault with FlyAg 61. Two of the four Cadets had Zero Crease in their pants and both looked like they had been slept in for a week. Two of the four had pants that were WAY TOO LONG and not fitted correctly. The last Cadet had a poor Hand Salute--something you would see from a High School Cadet.

I had three calls from SA Ags wanting to know what the hell is going on in the Corps if this is the best we can muster to be an Honor Detail for the General. I have to agree with them it was bad. Their uniforms appeared like they were still in FOW.

Perhaps to BQ74, this is acceptable, but to me it is not. I expect more from the Cadets. I can assure you BQ74, that no former Cadet wants a Dance Team but I do think "my" Corps and "your" Corps can do much better.

Canyon Ag 77--just because you have posted over 44,000 posts only proves to me you must think of yourself as some sort of an expert, but I think you are just an Ag that really has no outside life. This may be FlyAg61's first post but he felt strongly enough about the subject to post. I happen to know FlyAg61 and I can assure you, I know of no better Aggie who ever went through A&M. He is a combat veteran with an outstanding record. If you need to find fault find something else to jump on.


Out



Ryan the Temp
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At least they weren't Army strong ...
ChasB
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ChasB
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The photo shown above is NOT the one shown in the Express News. The Express News photo was of the first four cadets in the review line on the right side of General Dempsey. Its embarrassing. If I could figure out how to post the photo, I would do so.
WBBQ74
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Then show me the SAEN photo. I would like to see some context on who/what/where the black belt kids got dragooned to stand in some dog and pony show line for said GEN. In my era I would have seen this as a typical FF deal. Dempsey has the unenviable task of being Obama's chief military spearcatcher but enough on that.

Then again some folks just like to b_tch. Waiting on Streetfighter's take on this.
Warrior 66
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I too would like to see the photo referenced from the SA EN. What you don't see in the photo posted in this thread is that I walked just ahead of the CJCS, and saw those same cadets as I walked by. I saw NOTHING that I would consider embarrassing.

For what its worth, the CJCS told me before he left that he was completely impressed with the cadets and the Corps, and that he was proud of the young men and women he saw at the Review and the dinner. So did many members of his entourage - many of whom, like the CJCS, were academy grads. They especially liked the WWII style Class A uniform. I never heard a single complaint about cadets that looked "shoddy" or "embarrassing" from a single person.

You don't have to agree, but I was there, and I completely disagree with the OPs assertion about our cadets - especially when its all over a single photo. I've addressed this matter before - several times. There are some who will look at a single photo, then automatically infer that it represents the entire Corps, ALL cadets, ALL members of this generation, that they're all "embarrassing," etc. etc. Its unfair to the cadets, and its just wrong.

Again, I haven't seen the photo, but if you can find a way to send it to me, then I'll address it. Not sure that 3 people in SA represent SA as a whole, but I can tell you that the A&M Club there has always treated our Corps very well, especially when we bring over 650 cadets to SA for the Battle of Flowers Parade and they feed every one of them afterward. PMC marched in the Rodeo Parade in SA recently, and got rave reviews. I doubt that a single photo "further degrades our Corps of Cadets in the eyes of the public" - whatever that means - especially in SA. It may do so for the 3 who commented, but again, that certainly doesn't represent "the public," and certainly wasn't the prevailing attitude of all who were there that evening and saw our cadets first hand - including GEN Dempsey.

Thanks for your support of our Corps. Gig 'em!
hillcountryag86
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quote:
Not sure that 3 people in SA represent SA as a whole,
They don't.
bigtruckguy3500
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I don't know what the OP is talking about, but I've been on campus a few times over the past few years, and seen a few marchins, and the average cadet is certainly sloppier than I remember when I was a cadet. Chewing gum in uniform and no shirt stays (or a horrible tuck in spit of them) are extremely common. And I cringe everytime I see a march-in. There are some very sharp outfits, but it just seems like the average cadet just doesn't care.

Perhaps, when I was a cadet, cadets knew to avoid me because they knew I'd call them out on their sloppiness. And my outfit took drill more seriously than most. So perhaps I am biased. But, at the very least, I get very annoyed when I see sloppiness coming from cadets.
redcrayon
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Found the picture but can't save it to post it. You can sign up for free access and look at past issues.

Agree with the OP. Some were too quick to jump on him without actually seeing the picture.
redcrayon
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quote:
I don't know what the OP is talking about, but I've been on campus a few times over the past few years, and seen a few marchins, and the average cadet is certainly sloppier than I remember when I was a cadet. Chewing gum in uniform and no shirt stays (or a horrible tuck in spit of them) are extremely common. And I cringe everytime I see a march-in. There are some very sharp outfits, but it just seems like the average cadet just doesn't care.

Perhaps, when I was a cadet, cadets knew to avoid me because they knew I'd call them out on their sloppiness. And my outfit took drill more seriously than most. So perhaps I am biased. But, at the very least, I get very annoyed when I see sloppiness coming from cadets.
This kind of thing does make an impression. And it seems like it would be easy to fix.
hillcountryag86
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quote:
I don't know what the OP is talking about, but I've been on campus a few times over the past few years, and seen a few marchins, and the average cadet is certainly sloppier than I remember when I was a cadet. Chewing gum in uniform and no shirt stays (or a horrible tuck in spit of them) are extremely common. And I cringe everytime I see a march-in. There are some very sharp outfits, but it just seems like the average cadet just doesn't care.

Perhaps, when I was a cadet, cadets knew to avoid me because they knew I'd call them out on their sloppiness. And my outfit took drill more seriously than most. So perhaps I am biased. But, at the very least, I get very annoyed when I see sloppiness coming from cadets.
As a group, those of us who went through the Corps years ago couldn't hold a candle to today's cadets. Are there some in there who aren't the sharpest dressed? Yes. And I can remember several such cadets when I went through.

Perhaps some of the complaints stem from an inflated view of ourselves as time goes by. Surely, I was a better athlete when I played than kids today, right?

My son is a senior on the quad. Yeah, I see things we probably would not have allowed years ago. But, I look back and it is clear to me that, most of the emphasis, resources, effort and focus on attention to detail -- the crapouts at any hour, the comebys at any hour, the excessive punishment related to the offense -- all came at the expense of grades.

The university does not tolerate the marginal grades that were allowed in the past.

If the Corps was going to remain a vital, prominent part of Texas A&M, things had to change. Emphasis had to shift from a two-light shine being more important than a calculus exam.

This doesn't mean cadets can be sloppy bags. But it does mean success in the classroom is the primary emphasis.

I've spent the last four years watching the Corps. These young men and women are sharp and smart -- very sharp and smart.

I look back and remember so many things we made a priority over many other things that should have been a priority.

None of this is to suggest cadets should get a free pass. I don't think they do. It's possible a few have brass that should be straighter. But we spent many nights counting threads, shining shoes, burning cables. We spent so many hours disciplining others to do the same. And the cost was sometimes high -- too high.

I am very proud of today's Corps.
Forrest Gump
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Page A6. of the Feb 20th issue.



I too am very proud of the Corps. I just wanted to get this picture up for some context for everyone. React, over react, don't react. In my opinion just support the Cadets and our Corps. Maybe instead of blasting the Corps, email the Commandant and ask if the MPW has the resources it needs to make sure Cadets Uniforms are tailored properly, if that is a big passion of yours.
redcrayon
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quote:
quote:
I don't know what the OP is talking about, but I've been on campus a few times over the past few years, and seen a few marchins, and the average cadet is certainly sloppier than I remember when I was a cadet. Chewing gum in uniform and no shirt stays (or a horrible tuck in spit of them) are extremely common. And I cringe everytime I see a march-in. There are some very sharp outfits, but it just seems like the average cadet just doesn't care.

Perhaps, when I was a cadet, cadets knew to avoid me because they knew I'd call them out on their sloppiness. And my outfit took drill more seriously than most. So perhaps I am biased. But, at the very least, I get very annoyed when I see sloppiness coming from cadets.
As a group, those of us who went through the Corps years ago couldn't hold a candle to today's cadets. Are there some in there who aren't the sharpest dressed? Yes. And I can remember several such cadets when I went through.

Perhaps some of the complaints stem from an inflated view of ourselves as time goes by. Surely, I was a better athlete when I played than kids today, right?

My son is a senior on the quad. Yeah, I see things we probably would not have allowed years ago. But, I look back and it is clear to me that, most of the emphasis, resources, effort and focus on attention to detail -- the crapouts at any hour, the comebys at any hour, the excessive punishment related to the offense -- all came at the expense of grades.

The university does not tolerate the marginal grades that were allowed in the past.

If the Corps was going to remain a vital, prominent part of Texas A&M, things had to change. Emphasis had to shift from a two-light shine being more important than a calculus exam.

This doesn't mean cadets can be sloppy bags. But it does mean success in the classroom is the primary emphasis.

I've spent the last four years watching the Corps. These young men and women are sharp and smart -- very sharp and smart.

I look back and remember so many things we made a priority over many other things that should have been a priority.

None of this is to suggest cadets should get a free pass. I don't think they do. It's possible a few have brass that should be straighter. But we spent many nights counting threads, shining shoes, burning cables. We spent so many hours disciplining others to do the same. And the cost was sometimes high -- too high.

I am very proud of today's Corps.
Maybe you're too close to the situation to accept a little constructive criticism.
Ryan the Temp
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quote:
Page A6. of the Feb 20th issue.


Somebody definitely needs to teach that kid how to salute, and maybe he's a little heavy, but I can clearly see the crease in his trousers. I guess I'm just not seeing what people are upset about.
redcrayon
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I emailed this link to an old cadet I know. He said the kid's salute needs help and the pants need a tailor and an iron. Easy to fix. And he thought it was cool to see Gen. Dempsey there!

And he agrees with bigtruck.
Warrior 66
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Thanks for posting the actual pic that caused all the stir. I agree there are some pants that need to be better in this pic, but to describe these cadets as "shoddy" and "embarrassing" is quite the stretch. And as for salutes, take a look at the CJCS - anyone want to call him out too??

I will certainly take this for action, and will reinforce uniform standards to our cadet leadership. Its a constant fight, but one that is showing a lot of improvement over previous years. But I have to say that this is not NEARLY as bad as the OP led me to believe with his initial post. There are certainly some improvements to be made, but I see nothing here that I consider "embarrassing."

Give these 18-22 year olds a break. Having led troops for over 31 years, all over the world, in peace and in war, I can assure you that these cadets are no different than they were: committed, enthusiastic, motivated, striving to be the best that they can be. I can fix a uniform easily - and I will. But to call these cadets an "embarrassment" is completely unfair.

Maybe its time to pull up some pictures from past years - including my years in the late 70s - to remind folks that there were cadets that didn't look good in uniform back then too. Think some of our memories have faded pretty badly over time, to a point where some of us believe we all looked like Jack Armstrong, All American Boy - when in reality we didn't. These cadets are FAR better than I ever was (I concur with hillcountryag86), and if a pair of pants that may be a little long or may not have a tight crease is the worst thing we can find with them, then I think they're doing pretty well.

Thanks again for posting "the pic," and rest assured that I will take this for action. I appreciate your support of our Corps. Gig 'em!
Scruffy
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At least no one is upset about the 2 cadets wearing different/shorter coats than the rest.
Ryan the Temp
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quote:
At least no one is upset about the 2 cadets wearing different/shorter coats than the rest.
Or their long hair and breasts.
hillcountryag86
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quote:
quote:
quote:
I don't know what the OP is talking about, but I've been on campus a few times over the past few years, and seen a few marchins, and the average cadet is certainly sloppier than I remember when I was a cadet. Chewing gum in uniform and no shirt stays (or a horrible tuck in spit of them) are extremely common. And I cringe everytime I see a march-in. There are some very sharp outfits, but it just seems like the average cadet just doesn't care.

Perhaps, when I was a cadet, cadets knew to avoid me because they knew I'd call them out on their sloppiness. And my outfit took drill more seriously than most. So perhaps I am biased. But, at the very least, I get very annoyed when I see sloppiness coming from cadets.
As a group, those of us who went through the Corps years ago couldn't hold a candle to today's cadets. Are there some in there who aren't the sharpest dressed? Yes. And I can remember several such cadets when I went through.

Perhaps some of the complaints stem from an inflated view of ourselves as time goes by. Surely, I was a better athlete when I played than kids today, right?

My son is a senior on the quad. Yeah, I see things we probably would not have allowed years ago. But, I look back and it is clear to me that, most of the emphasis, resources, effort and focus on attention to detail -- the crapouts at any hour, the comebys at any hour, the excessive punishment related to the offense -- all came at the expense of grades.

The university does not tolerate the marginal grades that were allowed in the past.

If the Corps was going to remain a vital, prominent part of Texas A&M, things had to change. Emphasis had to shift from a two-light shine being more important than a calculus exam.

This doesn't mean cadets can be sloppy bags. But it does mean success in the classroom is the primary emphasis.

I've spent the last four years watching the Corps. These young men and women are sharp and smart -- very sharp and smart.

I look back and remember so many things we made a priority over many other things that should have been a priority.

None of this is to suggest cadets should get a free pass. I don't think they do. It's possible a few have brass that should be straighter. But we spent many nights counting threads, shining shoes, burning cables. We spent so many hours disciplining others to do the same. And the cost was sometimes high -- too high.

I am very proud of today's Corps.
Maybe you're too close to the situation to accept a little constructive criticism.
You completely missed the point! Good grief. Tried to tell you I was in years ago so I know how "things were." And now I do have an up close view. Based on past experience and what I see now, I think today's Corps is a better organization.
redcrayon
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I really didn't miss the point. I think the Corps is doing great but even the Commandant acknowledges that the uniform stuff can be an issue. Isn't that what we're talking about here? It's not an unfair criticism and seems like an easier fix than staying up all night shining shoes.

And I think it's great that Gen. Ramirez is willing to address people here on TexAgs. The internet age must make his job really interesting.
bigtruckguy3500
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I totally get that academics are a priority, and if someone has to choose between shiny shoes and a calculus exam, they need to choose the exam. When I was cadet I tried to pass on the idea that crap outs for bad grades need to be worse than crap outs for bad uniforms. But that's besides the point.

My point is that cadets look like they just don't care. It takes minimal effort to roll your tuck when you get out of class. Virtually no effort to tuck your gum between in your cheek and your gums so you're not chomping on it while walking around. And it does take some effort, but it's not really hard to roll back your shoulders, swing your arms, stay in step looking at the head in front of you, and actually look like you want to be there at a march-in.

Again, there are plenty of cadets that do a great job, there are a decent number of outfits that maintain high standards, but you can sure pick out quite a few that just detract from everyone else.


ETA: I should also mention that, when I was there, there was a seeming unwillingness for cadets to call out other cadets for looking sloppy. After hitting the sort of minimum expected of you, it was considered toolish to look good in uniform beyond that. I'll also admit that I wasn't perfect by any means in calling out sloppiness.
Complaint Investigator
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Never was in the Corps. Just wanted to say, it takes minimal effort to put that fork down as well.
Good Poster
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I'd say the cadets that couldn't pass a PT test who walk around with their bellies flopping are more embarrassing than those pant creases.
Trident15
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In regard to uniform tailoring- the MPW has a limited stock and there are many times when you need to go a size up/down or get a different inseam and they simply don't have it. I'm sure the minor issues seen in this photo can be taken care of. It's not the end of the world.
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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Anybody see the crease in the General's pants ?
Ryan the Temp
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quote:
Anybody see the crease in the General's pants ?
Yes.
Ryan the Temp
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quote:
In regard to uniform tailoring- the MPW has a limited stock and there are many times when you need to go a size up/down or get a different inseam and they simply don't have it. I'm sure the minor issues seen in this photo can be taken care of. It's not the end of the world.
The fact that cadets rent their uniforms is a significant contributing factor to some of these problems because they cannot get them custom tailored. Most cadets are also within a relatively narrow range of sizes, so anyone on the edge or outside that range can often have issues with availability.
A Person
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Just want to reiterate the uniform issues. Very few pants are an exact fit. For the MPW, it often comes down to if they are in an acceptable range. I know when we checked uniform fit during FOW for the past two years, we would send fish to the MPW for a refit, and they would be sent back because what they had was as good as it was going to get. Just the nature of the system, not worth getting bent out of shape about.
NJ75AGfdt
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In my hay--day, some West Point Cadets came to CS for a football game. Granted, it was eons ago, but the ones I met had not shined their "Corfam" shoes, brass was dull (plastic cover not removed), and I was not impressed with their dress uni. Must've been a few odd ball cadets.
"It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man," Psalm 118:8.

"In God we trust...all others pay cash!"
CanyonAg77
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quote:
Just the nature of the system, not worth getting bent out of shape about.
Maybe getting bent out of shape enough to give money toward a revamp of the uniforms? Not a change of style, simply production of a few hundred new uniforms, taking into account more body types (taller and broader, not fatter)

And do cadets not buy any uniform parts anymore? Back in the day, you had your issue set, but most of us had extras that were purchased/passed down from earlier classes. Often, these were form fitted. For shirts, that meant a zipper closure behind the buttons for a tight fit without gapping at the buttons.

Back then, my form was one worth fitting to. Looks more like a bean bag chair now.
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