Stop throwing alley oops

Method Man said:

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Stop throwing alley oops

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This is kind of particularly annoying this year because this is a roster that should be ELITE at lobs. Both from the passing side with how Phelps and Taylor play and the catching side with Solo and Payne but we're bad at them because we have the offensive timing of a basketball team coming back together at a 25 year high school reunion trying to run their old set plays.

We play a style of basketball that is incapable of winning consistently at an elite level. Eventually we'll run into a team with hot shooters or a whistle-happy ref crew and we won't be able to keep up.

I was pondering this earlier. I wonder if part of it doesn't stem from Buzz's idea of taking predictable shots. We know Buzz is a numbers guy so there must be something telling him not to mess with the offense. I have no clue what that would be though. My initial thought is that we value the offensive board so much, we're willing to take worse shots for the sake of getting boards. If our entire strategy is built around second chance opportunities, then we need to play as fast as we can and shoot as much as possible IMO.

bobinator said:

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These are results of the problems, but not the problems themselves.

Why do we often take deep threes, dribble around, and struggle with passing the ball? It's the same reason we can't get it to Payne closer than 15 feet from the basket. They're all related to the same core issue we've had since Buzz has been here (though it's also one Kennedy's teams struggled with.)

We simply are not good at fundamental offensive basketball so we can't get people open. Nobody we want open is ever open where we want them to be open.

We're bad at setting screens and picks, we're extremely bad at using screens, we're not good at anticipating where the defense is going to be, we're slow to pass the ball when we do pass it, etc. We can't recruit it, we can't develop it, or both. If you recruit at an incredibly high level you can put so much talent on the floor that it makes up for the lack of fundamentals but we definitely don't do that. We just have to try and make up for it with offensive rebounding and sheer force of will sometimes.

Now, these aren't easy things to be good at. Just because they're fundamentals doesn't mean they're easy. It's extremely hard. But it's what separates the great teams from the good ones and the good ones from everyone else.

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Exactly

Heineken-Ashi said:

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bobinator said:

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Method Man said:

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Stop throwing alley oops

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This is kind of particularly annoying this year because this is a roster that should be ELITE at lobs. Both from the passing side with how Phelps and Taylor play and the catching side with Solo and Payne but we're bad at them because we have the offensive timing of a basketball team coming back together at a 25 year high school reunion trying to run their old set plays.

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Agreed. Gordon was better at noticing an open basket and throwing down lobs than anyone on this current team.

Bring back Andre Gordon baseline oops!

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of course Gordon couldn't shoot a lick... So there's that..

TheDecadeSapling said:

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I was pondering this earlier. I wonder if part of it doesn't stem from Buzz's idea of taking predictable shots. We know Buzz is a numbers guy so there must be something telling him not to mess with the offense. I have no clue what that would be though. My initial thought is that we value the offensive board so much, we're willing to take worse shots for the sake of getting boards. If our entire strategy is built around second chance opportunities, then we need to play as fast as we can and shoot as much as possible IMO.

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Buzz THINKS he is a numbers guy, there is a big difference.

SECTAMU#1 said:

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bobinator said:

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These are results of the problems, but not the problems themselves.

Why do we often take deep threes, dribble around, and struggle with passing the ball? It's the same reason we can't get it to Payne closer than 15 feet from the basket. They're all related to the same core issue we've had since Buzz has been here (though it's also one Kennedy's teams struggled with.)

We simply are not good at fundamental offensive basketball so we can't get people open. Nobody we want open is ever open where we want them to be open.

We're bad at setting screens and picks, we're extremely bad at using screens, we're not good at anticipating where the defense is going to be, we're slow to pass the ball when we do pass it, etc. We can't recruit it, we can't develop it, or both. If you recruit at an incredibly high level you can put so much talent on the floor that it makes up for the lack of fundamentals but we definitely don't do that. We just have to try and make up for it with offensive rebounding and sheer force of will sometimes.

Now, these aren't easy things to be good at. Just because they're fundamentals doesn't mean they're easy. It's extremely hard. But it's what separates the great teams from the good ones and the good ones from everyone else.

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Exactly

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We also often entry into Payne in a good spot, and then someone else will inexplicably go run within 2-3 feet of him, bringing over an easy double team and clogging his area to operate.
Dont really understand what they do in practice

FREE THROW SHOOTING IS PATHETIC!!!!

Turnovers (due to ball handling & ill-advised passes), poor shot selection, & mental lapses on defense at critical moments are the other areas that are horrendous, but these can be overcome to a large extent if/ when you make your free throws!

Buzz is a numbers guy, but he needs a "here's how to set and use screens" guy. And a shooting guy.

Pumpkinhead said:

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Because we are at the end of the season, the next loss is the last one, so obviously 'we are who we are' at this point...thus I'm not going to hope for or expect major differences.

Other than I really hope they now ultra-value each single possession and don't give away unforced turnovers.

So, Taylor and Phelps, please avoid the turnovers that occur by trying to dribble through three defenders, or that occur when you make a careless passes that your teammate can't catch or get intercepted. Everybody, don't try to make an entry pass into the post if our guy doesn't have good position, etc.

Let's at least try to get shot attempts off, which then gives us more attempts at offensive rebounds, etc. So no double digit turnover games in the NCAAT please. We can't afford at this point to be having those 8/9 turnovers in a single half.

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This is the right answer that is actually attainable at this point. We did this really well against Auburn and looked like a legit contender.

I don't know what Auburn was doing that game defensively but it was absolutely wild the way they defended us. I doubt that's repeatable against anyone any good.

PatAg said:

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SECTAMU#1 said:

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bobinator said:

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These are results of the problems, but not the problems themselves.

Why do we often take deep threes, dribble around, and struggle with passing the ball? It's the same reason we can't get it to Payne closer than 15 feet from the basket. They're all related to the same core issue we've had since Buzz has been here (though it's also one Kennedy's teams struggled with.)

We simply are not good at fundamental offensive basketball so we can't get people open. Nobody we want open is ever open where we want them to be open.

We're bad at setting screens and picks, we're extremely bad at using screens, we're not good at anticipating where the defense is going to be, we're slow to pass the ball when we do pass it, etc. We can't recruit it, we can't develop it, or both. If you recruit at an incredibly high level you can put so much talent on the floor that it makes up for the lack of fundamentals but we definitely don't do that. We just have to try and make up for it with offensive rebounding and sheer force of will sometimes.

Now, these aren't easy things to be good at. Just because they're fundamentals doesn't mean they're easy. It's extremely hard. But it's what separates the great teams from the good ones and the good ones from everyone else.

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Exactly

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We also often entry into Payne in a good spot, and then someone else will inexplicably go run within 2-3 feet of him, bringing over an easy double team and clogging his area to operate.
Dont really understand what they do in practice

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Anyone but Wade, Wilcher, or Garcia (lately) standing on the 3 point line anywhere near Payne is just idiotic. Get him the ball with one of those 3 as the outlet and 1 of the remaining two in the opposite corner. Have Payne work all week on cross court passing to the corner.

There. I just fixed our team.

Our best offense is quick scores off turnovers. If we can't get turnovers and easy baskets against Yale, it could be a sphincter squeezing game.

Zigzig said:

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Our best offense is quick scores off turnovers. If we can't get turnovers and easy baskets against Yale, it could be a sphincter squeezing game.

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final score very well could have both teams in the 40's

What? We've only even played one game in the 50's all season and they average like 82 points per game. If either team is in the 40s they're probably getting smoked.

I believe poor/slow ball movement is the root cause of a lot of our offensive issues. You move the ball around the court a lot quicker passing than dribbling unless of course you attack the rim and then get to the rim. Quality of shots is dictated largely by good ball movement and if we get better shots the fg % would improve imo. There are circumstances where iso ball is a good strategy but it's not most of the time particularly in a quality conference like the SEC this year.

I think we'll get to the rim a lot vs Yale and we'll also dominate them on the boards. keep the turnovers down and we'll be fine imo. Biggest risk in this game for us is running up a lot of turnovers. stay away from that and I predict a comfortable win but not necessarily a blowout.

That's one thing I meant to include but didn't specifically say. I mentioned we're late with passes but we're also bad at passing except for Taylor, Garcia and sometimes Phelps and even Garcia is usually a beat late.

Now again some of the lack of ball movement is because we can't get guys open off the ball to move it to them in the first place d, but even when we do the passes are often late.

But that's why I don't get what Auburn was doing on defense. You can't play passive defensive against us. It's like the one thing we can do well is attack if you play soft, you have to pressure the ball when Taylor or Phelps have it.

bobinator said:

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What? We've only even played one game in the 50's all season and they average like 82 points per game. If either team is in the 40s they're probably getting smoked.

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that was intended to be sarcasm, but i screwed up and left off the winky face

as for the OP's title, i'd love to see a Buzzball team do all the usual Buzzball things, and just shoot a little better.
Not necessarily asking for top 50....but damn, can't we at least expect to hover in the middle, somewhere in the 150 range of the rankings?

We're not all of a sudden going to become a great shooting team.

I agree the over-penetration turnovers are the easiest and most impactful things to fix.

Let Manny, Phelps and Washington get to the 12 foot mark and put up the mid-ranger. Then go to the offensive glass in a remorseless fashion.

Absolutely agree we aren't going to change character suddenly. I was thinking longer term we need better ball movement. We'll likely shoot a higher % against Yale than we did in conference play tho.

Yale is good statistically in fg % allowed (#30 ). We are # 25 but also did it against a lot stiffer competition . Yale is # 108 in points allowed per game. We are # 59.

I think there is a decent shot we smother them with defense and dominate the boards and win with a 70-58 type score

TheDecadeSapling said:

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I was pondering this earlier. I wonder if part of it doesn't stem from Buzz's idea of taking predictable shots. We know Buzz is a numbers guy so there must be something telling him not to mess with the offense. I have no clue what that would be though. My initial thought is that we value the offensive board so much, we're willing to take worse shots for the sake of getting boards. If our entire strategy is built around second chance opportunities, then we need to play as fast as we can and shoot as much as possible IMO.

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This is definitely true, but I think you're looking at the thought process wrong. We don't take bad shots to get offensive rebounds. We sometimes take bad shots to avoid turnovers. The problem with this team, and last year's team, is that we can't even make our good shots at a decent rate and we turn the ball over too much anyway.

But being good at offensive rebounding and being good at actual offense don't have to be mutually exclusive. Florida, for example, is very good at both.

It's just fundamental offensive basketball. We either need to recruit players who are better at them or get better at coaching players on them.

It's 2 things for me. We're bad at free throws, it is what it is. Not going to change at this point.
I'm pretty sure we lead the NCAA in carelessness. The lazy passes, dribbling off our own feet, falling down while out of control. Texas doesn't beat us at all this season if we have a little more attention to detail for a couple more minutes a game.
Run offense through Payne. Didn't do it at all last game, and unless he's dealing with an injury I can't fathom why we don't. It's the best chance this team has to put something on the court resembling an offense. He needs an entry pass much closer to the basket though. When he draws a double team 15 feet away, everyone knows he's going to lose the ball. He just doesn't have the ball skills to work through it.
Both of these things are immediately correctable and should be.

You could probably take like 2-5% off the top of Football, slide it over to basketball, and have at least a sweet 16 roster every year.

This is what I'm talking about. We can't just decide to "run the offense through Payne." Maybe we can against Yale, but not against elite teams. We'll turn it over even more than we already do.

For a football analogy this is like deciding you're going to pass the ball to a specific receiver when your QB is inaccurate, your other receivers can't get open, and your line can't block. We're bad at doing all of the things we need to do in order to get that receiver open and get them the ball.

Problem 1: We can't shoot, or at least most of the team can't shoot. That means other teams don't even have to guard a lot of our players on the perimeter, so they can float closer to the low block, making entry passes very difficult. We're way better on defense with Solo in the game, but he absolutely kills our ability to do anything on offense because teams don't even have to guard him, they can keep an extra player in the paint.

Problem 2: We're bad at entry passes anyway. We don't use ball fakes or shot fakes to move defenders to open up passing lanes, our passes are usually a beat late (even when Payne actually is open on the block. When we're going to pass it, everyone in the gym can see we're about to pass it and they jump it a lot of the time.

We're not going to be able to fix those problems right now, so the offense is what it is. Now again, against a team like Yale we can probably do all kinds of stuff we normally can't. Taylor and Phelps are going to be able to blow by their defenders, Garcia can probably take his man off the dribble. Wilcher and Hefner will be able to get more open, etc.

What you just said about Taylor and Phelps blowing by their defenders. If that does happen consistently this game won't be very close.

Passing. That's it. We have way too many possessions with way too few passes. (quite a few with none)