This is more of an off season topic but although its game week we still don't have any actual games to growl about.
I want to hear about the similarities and differences of Arkansas/SC entering the SEC vs. A&M/Mizzou's entrance. Inside the conference there seems to be very little negativity or reluctance of our joining the league. I haven't seen much push back from Mizzou's entrance.
I'm guessing there was more hesitation for the other fan bases in '92 when SC and Arkansas joined. The first expansion in several decades. In my opinion, Arkansas has a little bit of a red-headed stepchild complex. I really like the UA and Fayetteville. They are an SEC school no doubt, but if feels like they are constantly having to prove their worth. The inability to obtain the SEC championship has not helped this feeling in my estimation. I may be off base on this so just correct me if I am.
I don't have the foggiest about South Carolina's reception. I could imagine them as an ACC team with Clemson and all the schools in North Carolina. I have always liked that they were in the SEC, however.

South Carolina had history with the SEC schools and they were low key so they meshed pretty easily. I think Arkansas came in with a chip from the old SWC and have battled ever since. I think the biggest long term issue is if one of the new teams talks before they walk. Better to win first then talk about it after.

I agree with KM in that USCe seemed to mesh pretty well when they came in, while Arky has always seemed to catch some flack from the other fanbases to an extent. I think it has more to do with the fact that USCe seems to fit in the SEC footprint a little better. Arkansas is located in the northestern corner of the state, which kind of put it out seemly far for some of the SEC fans to travel to (not to mention Fayettville isn't the easiest place to travel to). I think the addition of yourselves and Mizzou will do more for Arky's perception as an SEC team than anything they have been able to do themselves since they've been a member.

While I see aTm having an easier time "fitting in", it is still a pretty good ways to travel for all of the SEC teams except LSU. With that said though, I think you guys will get some relief just because while you are some distance away from most schools, Mizzou is a lot further and not seen by most as a "southern" school. They will probably take some heat away from you.

Arkansas had a strong identity before the SEC. South Carolina really didn't.

South Carolina was an Independent before entering the SEC, so there wasn't really an identity to shed.

Arkansas had been successful in a neighboring conference and had real conference rivalries that it left behind when it joined the SEC. In that sense, A&M is more like Arkansas was when it joined.

Carolina's only real rivalry was with Clemson and they kept that series going. They had played UGA a lot, but Arkansas had longstanding series with Ole Miss and LSU before entering the league as well. Its not like we were unfamiliar with the territory.

Neither Carolina or Arkansas immediately competed well, but Arkansas at least competed, making it to Atlanta for the first time in 1995, and winning a basketball NC in 1994.

Carolina's first trip to ATL was 2010. Carolina also had several losing seasons early on, and its always easier to "like" or "mesh" with a team that you don't really notice except as a homecoming opponent.

The main difference is that Carolina was kind of a generic unknown to most football fans prior to entering the SEC. Its almost like South Carolina didn't exist prior to joining the SEC. Arkansas wasn't the same, and so there's a definite pre-SEC/post-SEC perception, at least in the minds of fans over 35. That probably lends itself to a perception of "not fitting in" when compared to South Carolina. People remember Arkansas before the SEC. Nobody remembers South Carolina before they joined the SEC.







[This message has been edited by wmr (edited 8/31/2012 11:38p).]

To expound on the previous thought:

Prior to Colorado and Nebraska moving to their new conferences from the Big 12, there wasn't a lot of precedent for a team moving from one "big" conference to another.

The Arizona schools did it back in the 1970s, but they didn't leave a league with history or significance when they joined the Pac-10.

Penn State joined the Big 10 after having been an independent.

South Carolina had been independent for decades prior to joining the SEC.

Arkansas in 1991 was the only school in the country to leave a historically strong (although weakened) league with rivalries to join a totally different league.

It was actually a pretty unique situation that didn't happen again until Nebraska joined the Big 10, nearly 20 years later. Yes, it happened with some frequency with other smaller schools and other leagues, but even the ACC expansion was different. FSU was indy, and Miami, Va Tech and BC all jumped from the Big East.

Even with Mizzou and A&M, they are coming into a new league as a pair, from the same former conference. Mizzou and A&M have only been conference mates for a short while, historically, though.

Arkansas went in dry, so to speak. The rivalry with Ole Miss helped acclimate, but it was a unique position for a school to be in--shelving 80 year old rivalries for an all new schedule and conference.

It hadn't really been done before or since, until the most recent expansions.

Thanks people. So wmr, speaking for Hog nation did you feel welcomed and/or given respect by the rest of the conference in '92? 2012?
And it looks like Mizzou is coming in with that chip on their shoulder. I don't think that is wise this early either.

There's a Big 6. Has been for years since Ole Miss went to hell. Nobody has been able to crack into it.

I think A&M has the resources to. I also think Arkansas is able to now with Texas recruiting opening back to them some and Missouri recruiting being added. DGB would have been a big get. Maybe next time.

In this since I think the East/West are not balanced competitively for the long term. Those poor MS schools

quote:

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So wmr, speaking for Hog nation did you feel welcomed and/or given respect by the rest of the conference in '92? 2012?

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I can't say I've ever felt any real disrespect from the SEC, aside from message board posters, and generally that's trying to use whatever they can to flame you. Its a game, right?

I went to Arkansas in the late 90s, and I don't remember ever thinking of Arkansas as anything other than an SEC team while in school. It seemed like Bama fans and others generally talked about us by then like we had always been in the league. The internet message board was not really a "thing" by then, though. You might get a message board flame telling you to "Go Back To the Big 12", but I doubt anybody would say that IRL at a ballgame or anything. I've never heard anything like that as an Arkansas fan.

The SEC never had a clear format with 10 teams and the scheduling was kinda weird. We have been in the SEC West as long as there has been an SEC West. I think there are very few SEC fans who would rather not have gone to 12 teams, looking back. Divisions are normal and the league makes more sense like it is.

As a result of their weird pre-division scheduling, we have played more matchups aganist several SEC teams than they have played against other founding members. On the other hand, because of scheduling changes, we've only played Vanderbilt a handful of times total.

Part of that just probably takes time. For perspective, we played in the SECCG in Atlanta before Texas A&M played in its first Big 12 season. We've been here a while.

There may have been a small contingent of Arkansas fans who really wished we had waited around for the Big 12 to form, but those were mostly really old folks who had too much hate for Texas. That's another thing that probably set us apart back in the early years. There was never a split loyalty in any way, but you might have heard a few people say they missed playing the traditional rivals.

Its hard to really imagine Arkansas not in the SEC unless you are over 45 years old, IMO. Barnhill Arena is an old, broken down, obsolete trash pile and we've been in Bud Walton since 1994, which might as well be forever. We actually played a couple of seasons of SEC basketball in Barnhill Arena, which is hard to imagine.

I think if you are worried about "fitting in" maybe you are putting too much stock in message board flames.







[This message has been edited by wmr (edited 9/4/2012 12:19p).]

Here's a little tidbit for you to expound on the previous post.

Without ever having played in the SEC West, Texas A&M has already played LSU more times than LSU has ever played:

Auburn
Tennessee
Vandy
UGA

Same for us. We have played LSU more than all of the above, plus Kentucky. We have almost played LSU as often as Florida and LSU have played in their history.

There are several weird little things like that that make divisions feel more important than anything else over time.

I will say the SEC had two permanent cross-division opponents after the 1991 expansion for several years. I miss that, because we got to play Tennessee annually and actually get some familiarity with an opponent besides South Carolina.

That's another thing that is less likeable about Mizzou. They have no history with anybody in the SEC. I hate thinking they are supposed to be our new "rivalry". Its all foreign to me.

[This message has been edited by wmr (edited 9/4/2012 12:38p).]

I'm not surprised by much that you have posted. I do think Arkansas has focused way too much on that old SWC team in Austin long after UA left for the SEC.
The history of the talks of UA, Texas A&M, and tu joining in the early 90s is pretty fascinating stuff. Makes you wonder what could have been.
I think we are being welcomed better than expected. The hardcore SEC media types I think are just ignoring us for now but, I get it. And sorry about the Mizzou debacle. It kinda just worked out for them.
Btw, I lived in Fayetteville from '05-'10 so I'm going off of experiences there. Even got to see one of those rare Vandy games, Jay Cutler ha.

wmr,

I am a little older than you and remember a SEC that included Georgia Tech and Tulane. South Carolina was not as "independent" as your post implies....

South Carolina was a part of the SIAA just like the SEC teams (including A&M)
South Carolina was a part of the SoCon just like the core SEC teams

When the SoCon fractured into the SEC and ACC, Georgia Tech stayed in the SEC and South Carolina went to the ACC where they stayed until the 1970's (around the same time Georgia Tech jumped from the SEC to the ACC)

The second game South Carolina ever played was Georgia and the Dawgs are the second most played team of the Cocks behind only Clemson. They had historical exposure to the SEC east teams and to this day all games with Tulane were played when Tulane was in the SEC. The same can be said with former SEC member Sewanee.

While I agree they were not historically good it was mostly because they had to play second fiddle to Clemson in their home state. Once free of the ACC and CU the Cocks were able to assert their own identity, even if they wandered the desert of IND for a decade or two. the difference is they entered the SEC humble with a desire to be better. The Hogs came in fresh off the SWC gulag and had a personality of a former prisoner.

Both have grown their programs, they have just done it from different methods and with different reactions from the original SEC members.

Kentucky:

South Carolina had been an Independent for 20 years in football prior to entering the SEC. Its true that they spent about 10-12 years in a conference with SEC members in the 1920s, but those schools formed the SEC while Carolina went with the ACC. They left the ACC in 1971. If you want to make a case for South Carolina having a conference identity, it is ACC. And that identity was long dead prior to 1991.

They played in the Metro Conference (like C-USA) for other sports starting in 1983. So, yeah. South Carolina went from "we have no conference affiliation" to "we are in the SEC". Arkansas had an annual slate of rivals that it just abruptly stopped playing.

Georgia Tech hasn't been in the SEC since 1964. They were 27 years gone from the SEC prior to 1991.

That is the actual history. South Carolina had what most would consider "ancient" history with some primary SEC schools, but UGA was the only school in its top-ten all time played against. I think it still is, even after 20 seasons in the SEC.

Arkansas has played Ole Miss in football every year consecutively since 1981, and 58 times total by comparison. That means a person near 40 who has followed Arkansas football his entire life has always remembered an annual game vs Ole Miss. The Arkansas/Ole Miss rivalry was put on hiatus several times due to fights and hatred.

The point is that South Carolina wasn't "more SEC" than Arkansas. It was just kind of anonymous as far as its affiliation, at least the 20 years leading up to joining the league.

That is my perspective. And dang, you are OLD!

:lol:










[This message has been edited by wmr (edited 9/5/2012 11:56a).]

Since you brought up the old school affiliations as a tie-in to the SEC, here's what Stassen provides as far as "having SEC connections" per games played vs SEC opponents in football.

Arkansas has played:

Ole Miss - 58 times
LSU- 56 times

South Carolina has played:

UGA - 59 times total

The next SEC team on its list as far as total times played in history:

Florida - 32 games total.

By that criteria, Arkansas actually has much more "history" playing football vs SEC founding membership.

wmr,

My youth was spent in AR under SWC rule. I agree about the Hogs and the west schools via the games they played. When all the realignment talk was about, I stated on multiple occasions that Arkansas, South Carolina, and A&M all had good SEC exposure. The one who did not was Missouri.

As noted above A&M and USC were old SIAA members and Arkansas never was. It went straight to the SWC while the other 2 went to other conference before they returned to where they started. Again, only Missouri is a strange person in a strange land so to speak. I still get back to Fayetteville, Little Rock, and Hot Springs just not as much. These days my Arkansas ties come visit me. I do however still drink Mountain Valley Water, only now they have to ship it.

Yes I am old, and getting whiter and more wrinkled by the day.

As for South Carolina they were there, just like they are now. The bigger issue with them was the influence Auburn had on the Clemson football team. I remember a time when Virginia Tech was the school you scheduled for homecoming because it was the easy win. Both schools have greatly altered their football history. Hard to believe there was a time when Georgia Tech was the top football school in GA and not the Dawgs. That sort of stuff gets lost for folks with short life experiences.

Many good books, movies, and music were made before the Internet.

You did however illustrate my point. Instead of accepting you many not know as much about South Carolina you had to go give data on Arkansas which was what I was aiming at in the first place when describing the chip the fans carry. I see the same thing from the younger Missouri folks and some of the A&M kids too. I can appreciate it because I know how it was back then when it was Arkansas vs the state of TX. The SEC is a place where you can get out of the shadows and make your own way.

Just remember not everything in the history books is accurate and old folks in your hometown are better sources than the internet when it comes to some things.

And I still think that if there is a perception about Carolina "fitting in" its due to their lack of a real history or brand prior to the SEC. A SIAA affiliation for 12 years in the 1920s and 30s doesn't make them SEC any more than it makes Phillips University or Oklahoma State Southwest Conference Schools.

Even in their ACC years, they didn't really win. As I said, their history wasn't much and so there wasn't a before/after in the minds of most people.

SIAA - ACC 30 years - Independent 20 years - SEC

Whereas, Arkansas went:

SWC for 76 years - SEC

The fact that some hold that perception doesn't hurt my feelings. Arkansas' entire historic identity has been of "the outsider" and we have a tendency to propagate that ourselves. Hell, its been much less so in the SEC than it was in the all-Texas SWC.

Another interesting aside is that within 10 years, Texas A&M will be #2 on all time games with any opponents for Arkansas. They are already top 7.

Meanwhile, we have a 5-game history with Mizzou.

I think one of the main reasons A&M fits in perception-wise better than Mizzou is its histories with LSU and Arkansas. I imagine seeing "SEC Moments" with Arkansas/Texas A&M and LSU/Texas A&M shown as history clips at ballgames, and those being stuff from the 1960s, etc.

Mizzou's primary exposure in the SEC is via bowl games, and a lot of that is relatively recent.

I think Mizzou will get the wake up call that it is different to play a single bowl game and a whole different world to play week after week in the SEC. I still hear the smack talk about that Arkansas game. I just smile and nod my head and wait.

On South Carolina, they are more tied by location. Columbia is on the way to Charleston and Hilton Head is the eastern version of the panhandle for the ACC and SEC crowd. Lots of distant cousins between the costal southern states and the branches that broke off and headed inland. Much intermarriage between say GA and SC than the SEC and Arkansas. Always seemed AR had bigger and stronger German roots while the eastern part of the SEC had lots of Scots Irish and English that came through Virginia.

Yeah there is a little more German in Arkansas, especially in the west and northwest where Fayetteville is located. Arkansas also has a lower AA population than most of the SEC.

Arkansas' eastern side is closely tied to Mississippi and Memphis, but there is not as much population density in the western edge of the SEC as there is on the eastern side.

The Arkansas/Ole Miss series was hateful in the 1950s and 60s. I remember a t-shirt from way back when listing the top 10 reasons to join the SEC and one of them was "Because we already hate Ole Miss."

A lot of eastern Arkansas farm kids believe Ole Miss is THE school to go to, but that area is more like Mississippi than it is the rest of Arkansas. We probably get 1/3 of our freshmen from Texas. There is more LSU-fan bleed over than I think most would expect, as they are strongly represented in Arkansas, especially since the storm.



[This message has been edited by wmr (edited 9/5/2012 7:20p).]

Thanks to both of you for all the enlightenment. This was more of what I was hoping for when I started this thread.

KM-I'm wanting to learn more about the history and I would prefer hearing the first hand stories rather than reading a lot of books (although I would take recommendations.)

When I moved to Arkansas I tried to look back and find out more about the SWC days and our history with Arkansas ('75 ugh.) There is no SWC website or much about it online since it was pre-internet boom. I am only 33 so the BigXII began right when I was starting to get really interested in college football. However, I do remember some SWC days and kinda bummed all the other Texas schools didn't keep up with the Jones' i.e. Houston, Rice, TCU, SMU(extenuating circumstances there).

And yeah, I love the history we already have with some of the SEC schools of course UA and LSU, but also Bama with the Bear, Stallings, Franchione connections, Auburn being an Agriculture school and the '86 Cotton Bowl, MSU/Jackie Sherill, etc. We have already played several SEC schools a lot.

We are a little like USCe was in that we will be standing alone from other programs in our state. Looking forward to having that very distinct, unique national perception instead of one of those Texas schools, regardless of whether our program is a perennial top ten program. We have a lot of pride in our school and we want the university to have its respect. Thanks again for the input....and lose of sleep from reading! Gig'Em

BTHO Florida



[This message has been edited by JMH (edited 9/6/2012 12:25a).]