Just the flu by the numbers

2,547 Views | 29 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Fenrir
Exsurge Domine
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I am not a guy who thinks Covid-19 is the flu, I think it's much worse than the flu, but wanted to put some of the numbers in perspective.

If the media published the numbers for flu every day during flu season it would average

300,000 new cases per day
5200 new hospitalizations per day
401 new deaths per day

Obviously we're not going to get anywhere near the first two, I don't believe, but worried we may get up to 400 deaths per day at the peak. I hope I'm wrong
TXAggie2011
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The "perspective" to be added about flu season is its already a stressful time for hospitals. Flu seasons continues. The flu doesn't care about Covid-19 and Covid-19 doesn't care about the flu.
AustinAg2K
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For the past week, Italy has been averaging 242 deaths per day. They have a population of 60 million. The US has 320 million people. If we were to hit the same average as Italy, that would be 1300 deaths per day in the US. Obviously, it's more complicated than that, but it gives a quick perspective on how bad it could get.
Thomas Ford 91
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The people in charge would high-five over 400 a day.
Yukon Cornelius
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AustinAg2K said:

For the past week, Italy has been averaging 242 deaths per day. They have a population of 60 million. The US has 320 million people. If we were to hit the same average as Italy, that would be 1300 deaths per day in the US. Obviously, it's more complicated than that, but it gives a quick perspective on how bad it could get.


You should include the fact Italy is one of the oldest populations in the world and notorious smokers.

You can not compare Italy to the US to China to S. Korea etc.
MediAg13
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Exsurge Domine said:

I am not a guy who thinks Covid-19 is the flu, I think it's much worse than the flu, but wanted to put some of the numbers in perspective.

If the media published the numbers for flu every day during flu season it would average

300,000 new cases per day
5200 new hospitalizations per day
401 new deaths per day

Obviously we're not going to get anywhere near the first two, I don't believe, but worried we may get up to 400 deaths per day at the peak. I hope I'm wrong


Your number of 300,000 new cases per day is WAY off it's more like <10,000 per week.

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm
Exsurge Domine
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MediAg13 said:

Exsurge Domine said:

I am not a guy who thinks Covid-19 is the flu, I think it's much worse than the flu, but wanted to put some of the numbers in perspective.

If the media published the numbers for flu every day during flu season it would average

300,000 new cases per day
5200 new hospitalizations per day
401 new deaths per day

Obviously we're not going to get anywhere near the first two, I don't believe, but worried we may get up to 400 deaths per day at the peak. I hope I'm wrong


Your number of 300,000 new cases per day is WAY off it's more like <10,000 per week.

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm


How do you get that? On average 27 million illnesses spread out amongst 13 weeks on average
TXAggie2011
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Yukon Cornelius said:

AustinAg2K said:

For the past week, Italy has been averaging 242 deaths per day. They have a population of 60 million. The US has 320 million people. If we were to hit the same average as Italy, that would be 1300 deaths per day in the US. Obviously, it's more complicated than that, but it gives a quick perspective on how bad it could get.


You should include the fact Italy is one of the oldest populations in the world and notorious smokers.

You can not compare Italy to the US to China to S. Korea etc.


If the overall US death rate is just a fraction of Italy's, there will still be hundreds of thousands dead if this virus isn't contained.
Yukon Cornelius
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TXAggie2011 said:

Yukon Cornelius said:

AustinAg2K said:

For the past week, Italy has been averaging 242 deaths per day. They have a population of 60 million. The US has 320 million people. If we were to hit the same average as Italy, that would be 1300 deaths per day in the US. Obviously, it's more complicated than that, but it gives a quick perspective on how bad it could get.


You should include the fact Italy is one of the oldest populations in the world and notorious smokers.

You can not compare Italy to the US to China to S. Korea etc.


If the overall US death rate is just a fraction of Italy's, there will still be hundreds of thousands dead if this virus isn't contained.


Nothing even remotely close to those death numbers will happen.
TXAggie2011
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That is, of course, everyone's hope.
JB!98
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Damn. Sorry, this turned into a **** show. Covered the political and theological bases and I didn't intend it to be that way.
MediAg13
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Ah you're right, I'm tired and misread. Those are CDC positive tests used for surveillance.
SMM48
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Italy also has an older heavier smoking population
And a Customary greeting that just begs for virus spread
TXAggie2011
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SteveMedina said:

Italy also has an older heavier smoking population
And a Customary greeting that just begs for virus spread
Right now, the spread in the US is just about on the same track.
BlackGoldAg2011
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I get why this keeps getting compared to the seasonal flu. It's something we are all familiar with. But part of that is what makes this a bad comparison in my opinion. Vaccination is wide spread, I imagine there is some lingering immunity among the population, and we know how to handle it because we are familiar with it. Would not a better comparison be to the 2009 H1N1 flue strain? it was novel so there was 0 existing immunity or vaccination in the population, and had a similar transmission mechanism. To me this should be a case study in spread rates and extents if we did not implement adequate controls. estimates are that 11%-21% of the global population got it. (700MM-1.4B) and 61MM in the US. final estimates were an R0 of 1.46 so if the current estimates of the COVID-19 R0 in the 1.5-3 range are accurate we could expect at least those numbers of infected assuming minimal intervention.

Where the problem comes is even if you use the high side of the death estimate and low side of the infected estimate, the CFR for 2009 h1n1 was only 0.08%. Looking at all of the data, the lowest CFR for any country with a significant number of cases is currently sitting at about .25%. So best case scenario we are looking at a virus that is equally as contagious, and 3 times as deadly as the swine flu pandemic. that's nearly 2MM global deaths and up up to 150k in the US. Looking at the top 15 countries by case count though, the CFR numbers look like they will wind up being worse. the aggregate CFR is 4.2%, average by equally weighting each country is 2.43%, and taking out the top and bottom outliers looks to settle in the range of 0.8% to 3.5%.

The diamond princess cruise is a great microcosm case study due to the high level of testing vs population. here they wound up with 696 cases and so far 7 deaths, with 15 remaining cases in serious/critical condition. here we think we have a good handle on the total case count so the CFR should be pretty accurate. If no new deaths happen the CFR is 1%, if all 15 remaining serious cases die that puts it at 3.16%. This data, at least to me, makes the global numbers of 0.8% to 3.5% seem to be narrowing in on the correct range for this virus. With that in mind, that would put the range of global deaths at 5.5MM-42MM using low-low, and high-high (infections-CFR) numbers to set the range, with the more likely range being in the 7MM to 20MM. Or just looking at the US that would put us in the range of 500k to 1.8MM deaths.

I personally think these numbers are good to look at because they seem pretty indicative of the impact should we do nothing or implement minimal precautions like with swine flu. It also makes it pretty clear why many in leadership have deemed major societal response as being necessary. Hopefully we see nothing close to those numbers, but looking at 2009 h1n1 numbers, that would mean to me that our drastic response was effective.

I am no expert in medicine, just an engineer looking at the numbers and trying to make sense of it all, so take my ramblings for what they are worth, hopefully at least slightly more than you paid for them.
nortex97
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It's basically analogous to the flu, but most don't want to hear that because they don't want to be slammed as a 'denier;' the actual death rate from (confirmed cases of) coronavirus is under 2 percent now in the US, and has been dropping for weeks.
Quote:

Similar to the flu, those most at risk of dying from the coronavirus are the elderly and the sick. The average age for those who died from the coronavirus in Italy is 81 years old. This is consistent around the world. There have been no known fatalities for any children 10 and under.

Quote:

3. The current "estimate" for the coronavirus fatality rate according to the WHO is about 3.4%.
The estimate used most often is from the WHO based on the Director General's comments. The WHO estimates the mortality rate of the coronavirus to be around 3.4%:
Quote:

The World Health Organization (WHO) has estimated the mortality rate from Covid-19 is about 3.4%. That is higher than seasonal flu and is cause for concern but even if it is correct, more than 96% of people who become infected with the coronavirus will recover.
4. The same rate for this year's seasonal flu is 10% if you use the known data (but the media tells you it's .1%).
As The Gateway Pundit reported earlier, according to CDC numbers, in the US in the 2019-2020 flu season, there were 222,552 confirmed cases of the flu from testing and an estimated 36 million flu cases in the United States. There were 22,552 confirmed deaths from the flu.

Note that the number of deaths and confirmed cases (through testing) of the flu in the US are based on actual data. The number of individuals who contracted the flu is an estimate. There is no way to know who had the flu in the US because many cases are not severe and people do not have a test done to confirm they had the flu. They believe their symptoms are minor and go on with their normal lives thinking they had a cold or something similar. Because of this, the CDC estimates and they estimated 36 million people had the flu in this past flu season.

The rate of the number of individuals who died from the flu to the number of individuals who were estimated to have had the flu is .1% (22,552 / 36 million). This is an estimate and the amount used above by the Director General of the WHO.

However, the rate of individuals who died from the flu to the number of individuals who were confirmed to have had the flu is around 10% (22,000/ 222,552). This is based on actual data similar to the rate for the coronavirus above.


5. Actual results for the coronavirus are lower than the flu.
Based on the above numbers, the actual fatality rate for those who were confirmed to have had the coronavirus is 3.4%.
The actual rates for those who were confirmed to have had the flu are around 10%.
The actual data shows that the fatality rate for those who had the flu (10%) is 6% higher than for those with the coronavirus (3.8%).
TXTransplant
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BlackGoldAg2011 said:

I get why this keeps getting compared to the seasonal flu. It's something we are all familiar with. But part of that is what makes this a bad comparison in my opinion. Vaccination is wide spread, I imagine there is some lingering immunity among the population, and we know how to handle it because we are familiar with it. Would not a better comparison be to the 2009 H1N1 flue strain? it was novel so there was 0 existing immunity or vaccination in the population, and had a similar transmission mechanism. To me this should be a case study in spread rates and extents if we did not implement adequate controls. estimates are that 11%-21% of the global population got it. (700MM-1.4B) and 61MM in the US. final estimates were an R0 of 1.46 so if the current estimates of the COVID-19 R0 in the 1.5-3 range are accurate we could expect at least those numbers of infected assuming minimal intervention.

Where the problem comes is even if you use the high side of the death estimate and low side of the infected estimate, the CFR for 2009 h1n1 was only 0.08%. Looking at all of the data, the lowest CFR for any country with a significant number of cases is currently sitting at about .25%. So best case scenario we are looking at a virus that is equally as contagious, and 3 times as deadly as the swine flu pandemic. that's nearly 2MM global deaths and up up to 150k in the US. Looking at the top 15 countries by case count though, the CFR numbers look like they will wind up being worse. the aggregate CFR is 4.2%, average by equally weighting each country is 2.43%, and taking out the top and bottom outliers looks to settle in the range of 0.8% to 3.5%.

The diamond princess cruise is a great microcosm case study due to the high level of testing vs population. here they wound up with 696 cases and so far 7 deaths, with 15 remaining cases in serious/critical condition. here we think we have a good handle on the total case count so the CFR should be pretty accurate. If no new deaths happen the CFR is 1%, if all 15 remaining serious cases die that puts it at 3.16%. This data, at least to me, makes the global numbers of 0.8% to 3.5% seem to be narrowing in on the correct range for this virus. With that in mind, that would put the range of global deaths at 5.5MM-42MM using low-low, and high-high (infections-CFR) numbers to set the range, with the more likely range being in the 7MM to 20MM. Or just looking at the US that would put us in the range of 500k to 1.8MM deaths.

I personally think these numbers are good to look at because they seem pretty indicative of the impact should we do nothing or implement minimal precautions like with swine flu. It also makes it pretty clear why many in leadership have deemed major societal response as being necessary. Hopefully we see nothing close to those numbers, but looking at 2009 h1n1 numbers, that would mean to me that our drastic response was effective.

I am no expert in medicine, just an engineer looking at the numbers and trying to make sense of it all, so take my ramblings for what they are worth, hopefully at least slightly more than you paid for them.
Actually, if you read the CDC report, that's not true. They found immunity in people 60 and older. Presumably, they were exposed to a similar strain years back. It was young people who had no immunity, which is why H1N1 was so deadly for that population but not as much for older folks.
Tmoneyag99
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TXTransplant said:

BlackGoldAg2011 said:

I get why this keeps getting compared to the seasonal flu. It's something we are all familiar with. But part of that is what makes this a bad comparison in my opinion. Vaccination is wide spread, I imagine there is some lingering immunity among the population, and we know how to handle it because we are familiar with it. Would not a better comparison be to the 2009 H1N1 flue strain? it was novel so there was 0 existing immunity or vaccination in the population, and had a similar transmission mechanism. To me this should be a case study in spread rates and extents if we did not implement adequate controls. estimates are that 11%-21% of the global population got it. (700MM-1.4B) and 61MM in the US. final estimates were an R0 of 1.46 so if the current estimates of the COVID-19 R0 in the 1.5-3 range are accurate we could expect at least those numbers of infected assuming minimal intervention.

Where the problem comes is even if you use the high side of the death estimate and low side of the infected estimate, the CFR for 2009 h1n1 was only 0.08%. Looking at all of the data, the lowest CFR for any country with a significant number of cases is currently sitting at about .25%. So best case scenario we are looking at a virus that is equally as contagious, and 3 times as deadly as the swine flu pandemic. that's nearly 2MM global deaths and up up to 150k in the US. Looking at the top 15 countries by case count though, the CFR numbers look like they will wind up being worse. the aggregate CFR is 4.2%, average by equally weighting each country is 2.43%, and taking out the top and bottom outliers looks to settle in the range of 0.8% to 3.5%.

The diamond princess cruise is a great microcosm case study due to the high level of testing vs population. here they wound up with 696 cases and so far 7 deaths, with 15 remaining cases in serious/critical condition. here we think we have a good handle on the total case count so the CFR should be pretty accurate. If no new deaths happen the CFR is 1%, if all 15 remaining serious cases die that puts it at 3.16%. This data, at least to me, makes the global numbers of 0.8% to 3.5% seem to be narrowing in on the correct range for this virus. With that in mind, that would put the range of global deaths at 5.5MM-42MM using low-low, and high-high (infections-CFR) numbers to set the range, with the more likely range being in the 7MM to 20MM. Or just looking at the US that would put us in the range of 500k to 1.8MM deaths.

I personally think these numbers are good to look at because they seem pretty indicative of the impact should we do nothing or implement minimal precautions like with swine flu. It also makes it pretty clear why many in leadership have deemed major societal response as being necessary. Hopefully we see nothing close to those numbers, but looking at 2009 h1n1 numbers, that would mean to me that our drastic response was effective.

I am no expert in medicine, just an engineer looking at the numbers and trying to make sense of it all, so take my ramblings for what they are worth, hopefully at least slightly more than you paid for them.
Actually, if you read the CDC report, that's not true. They found immunity in people 60 and older. Presumably, they were exposed to a similar strain years back. It was young people who had no immunity, which is why H1N1 was so deadly for that population but as much for older folks.
yup it was called "Taiwan flu" back then. My little sister had it at 6mths of age and had to be placed in an oxygen tent for 3 weeks. Oddly enough her immunity didn't "stick" since she got it again in college.
AgGrad99
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TXAggie2011 said:

The "perspective" to be added about flu season is its already a stressful time for hospitals. Flu seasons continues. The flu doesn't care about Covid-19 and Covid-19 doesn't care about the flu.
Agreed...but aren't we coming out of the flu season for the most part?
Fenrir
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AgGrad99 said:

TXAggie2011 said:

The "perspective" to be added about flu season is its already a stressful time for hospitals. Flu seasons continues. The flu doesn't care about Covid-19 and Covid-19 doesn't care about the flu.
Agreed...but aren't we coming out of the flu season for the most part?
From what I recall, peak of flu season is February through March and can last until April or early May.

Decent chance this could hit at the peak of flu season.
AgGrad99
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I'd read Oct-Feb...with it tapering off early April.

Which means this might actually be 'perfect' timing to experience something like this.

Guess we'll find out.
nortex97
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Peak is in February with very little left in April.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season.htm
Fenrir
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That chart shows that the peak can extend into March and also has a line stating that flu activity can extend into May.

It's not for certain that we're past the peak of flu season at all.
TXTransplant
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H1N1 outbreak ran from April 2009 to April 2010.

https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/cdcresponse.htm
MaroonStain
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AustinAg2K said:

For the past week, Italy has been averaging 242 deaths per day. They have a population of 60 million. The US has 320 million people. If we were to hit the same average as Italy, that would be 1300 deaths per day in the US. Obviously, it's more complicated than that, but it gives a quick perspective on how bad it could get.


A comparison between Italy and US is muck akin to comparing Massachusetts to Texas.

Population density is rather important.
MaroonStain
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Ddp
kraut
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On the bright side - the flu numbers should be down this year since the same precautions of not catching the flu are basically the same as COVID-19.
wargograw
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Very interesting
nortex97
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Well feel free to go look at all the other data that is available. We are definitely past the peak this year. (Main chart, bottom right, is to week 10).

https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/fluportaldashboard.html

Stressboy
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BlackGoldAg2011 said:

I get why this keeps getting compared to the seasonal flu. It's something we are all familiar with. But part of that is what makes this a bad comparison in my opinion. Vaccination is wide spread, I imagine there is some lingering immunity among the population, and we know how to handle it because we are familiar with it. Would not a better comparison be to the 2009 H1N1 flue strain? it was novel so there was 0 existing immunity or vaccination in the population, and had a similar transmission mechanism. To me this should be a case study in spread rates and extents if we did not implement adequate controls. estimates are that 11%-21% of the global population got it. (700MM-1.4B) and 61MM in the US. final estimates were an R0 of 1.46 so if the current estimates of the COVID-19 R0 in the 1.5-3 range are accurate we could expect at least those numbers of infected assuming minimal intervention.

Where the problem comes is even if you use the high side of the death estimate and low side of the infected estimate, the CFR for 2009 h1n1 was only 0.08%. Looking at all of the data, the lowest CFR for any country with a significant number of cases is currently sitting at about .25%. So best case scenario we are looking at a virus that is equally as contagious, and 3 times as deadly as the swine flu pandemic. that's nearly 2MM global deaths and up up to 150k in the US. Looking at the top 15 countries by case count though, the CFR numbers look like they will wind up being worse. the aggregate CFR is 4.2%, average by equally weighting each country is 2.43%, and taking out the top and bottom outliers looks to settle in the range of 0.8% to 3.5%.

The diamond princess cruise is a great microcosm case study due to the high level of testing vs population. here they wound up with 696 cases and so far 7 deaths, with 15 remaining cases in serious/critical condition. here we think we have a good handle on the total case count so the CFR should be pretty accurate. If no new deaths happen the CFR is 1%, if all 15 remaining serious cases die that puts it at 3.16%. This data, at least to me, makes the global numbers of 0.8% to 3.5% seem to be narrowing in on the correct range for this virus. With that in mind, that would put the range of global deaths at 5.5MM-42MM using low-low, and high-high (infections-CFR) numbers to set the range, with the more likely range being in the 7MM to 20MM. Or just looking at the US that would put us in the range of 500k to 1.8MM deaths.

I personally think these numbers are good to look at because they seem pretty indicative of the impact should we do nothing or implement minimal precautions like with swine flu. It also makes it pretty clear why many in leadership have deemed major societal response as being necessary. Hopefully we see nothing close to those numbers, but looking at 2009 h1n1 numbers, that would mean to me that our drastic response was effective.

I am no expert in medicine, just an engineer looking at the numbers and trying to make sense of it all, so take my ramblings for what they are worth, hopefully at least slightly more than you paid for them.


Good write up but cruise populations are not representative of the general population they probably skew much older making the mortality rate much higher.
Fenrir
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Cool, that's good news.
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