German Study Finds Potential 15% Antibody Response, But Cross-Reactivity Issue

2,883 Views | 10 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by KidDoc
Ranger222
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AG
Study is making the rounds.

Not a final conclusion, data does not appear finalized and this a preprint, not a published, final result.

Its all in German but here is the English translation:

Quote:

Quote:

For context: Heinsberg is a municipality in Northrine-Westphalia. On February 15, a man who was unknowingly SARS-CoV-2 positive attended a large carnival event in the town of Gangelt, setting in motion the wide spread of SARS-CoV-2 within Heinsberg and the rest of the state.
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Goal: The study aims to uncover the number of current and past SARS-CoV-2 infections in Gangelt with the intention of estimating the current level of immunity within the community.
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Methods: A letter was sent to a representative sample of 600 households, asking them to participate in the study. 400 households, totaling 1000 people, chose to do so. Surveys were administered, pharyngeal swabs taken and antibody testing (IgG and IgA) was also done. 500 people were part of the group studied in this pre-publication.
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Preliminary results: Present immunity was determined to be around 14% (anti-SARS-CoV-2 IgG positive, Specificity 99%). Roughly 2% of participants showed an ongoing infection as determined by PCR. The combined percentage of past and present infections was found to be 15%. The case fatality rate relative to the total number of infected detected in this study was 0.37%. Lethality for Germany as a whole as determined by John-Hopkins University currently stands at a number five times higher: 1.98%. Mortality relative to the total population of Gangelt was found to be 0.06%. [This last sentence previously said 0.15%, by which they probably meant mortality from all causes for whatever reason. The number has been updated in the link in the comments.]
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Conclusions: It is to be assumed that this captures all infected within the sample, including those with asymptomatic and mild disease courses. The percentage of the population with immunity to SARS-CoV-2 is roughly 15% in Gangelt. This means that 15% of the population of Gangelt can no longer be infected with SARS-CoV-2, implying that a first step towards herd immunity has been made. 15% immunity will further help reduce transmission (basic reproduction number R).


German Link

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Potential problem with the serological test? Cross-reactivity to seasonal coronaviruses.
[url=https://www.zeit.de/wissen/gesundheit/2020-04/heinsberg-studie-coronavirus-hendrik-streeck-storymachine-kai-diekmann][/url]
Article Link Raising Concerns on Study

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The problem: It is highly questionable whether commercial tests are currently available that can differentiate between infection with the new corona virus and infection with other seasonal corona viruses. According to the Helmholtz Center for Infection Research, coronaviruses are responsible for about a third of all colds in humans . Four such endemic pathogens also circulate here in the winter half-year. But none of this was explained at the press conference on Thursday morning.
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As part of the development of their own antibody test, an international research group led by Christian Drosten also checked prototypes of the antibody test from Euroimmun ( MedRxiv : Okba et al., 2020 ). To this end, the scientists examined sera from people who could not have been infected with the current Sars-CoV-2, since their samples come from a time before the outbreak. In fact, in some cases, the tests responded to antibodies from seasonal cold viruses from the Corona family. The researchers applied the test again to twelve serum samples from the blood of two patients who apparently had such a seasonal infection. Again he reacted to the antibodies. And these are not antibodies against Sars-CoV-2.

This very small check contradicts Streeck's statement that cross-reactivity - i.e. that the test also reacts to antibodies from seasonal coronaviruses - hardly plays a role in the Heinsberg study. To what extent the Euroimmun test in the study by the Bonn working group was so advanced that this cross-reactivity could be reduced or even ruled out, no data is currently available
Quote:

In the meantime, it has also become known that the research team led by Hendrik Streeck is supported in public relations by the social media agency Storymachine. It was founded by former picture editor-in-chief Kai Diekmann , PR professional Michael Mronz - the former life partner of the late foreign minister and FDP politician Guido Westerwelle - and former stern.de chief Philipp Jessen. The agency supports the research of the Bonn team with an information campaign on social networks, on Twitter and Facebook . This is extremely unusual for scientific studies taking place at a public university.
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Conclusions: While these serological tests are being rolled out, we must first verify whether or not cross-reactivity is present to other "common cold" coronaviruses that may fudge the data.

IF this data comes back clean, this is still only representative of one hot-spot community. The results would not be able to translate to a broader geographical region.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
If the tests for COVID 19 antibiotics are cross reacting with other coronavirus antibodies, then it makes me wonder if there could be some immune system overlap. Something like coxpox/smallpox where the more benign virus confers some immunity to the worse one. It would help explain the large percentage of asymptomatic cases, and it would help explain why older people are more severely affected. Older people tend to have a muted immune response compared to younger people, and their transient immunites wane faster
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KidDoc
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AG
ramblin_ag02 said:

If the tests for COVID 19 antibiotics are cross reacting with other coronavirus antibodies, then it makes me wonder if there could be some immune system overlap. Something like coxpox/smallpox where the more benign virus confers some immunity to the worse one. It would help explain the large percentage of asymptomatic cases, and it would help explain why older people are more severely affected. Older people tend to have a muted immune response compared to younger people, and their transient immunites wane faster
You may end up being correct. Young children likely get routine COronovirus infections each year. COVID shares much of the same structure as the common virus so they likely have circulating IgM prior to exposure leading to immediate response before COVID can reach the lung tissue.
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Ag In Ok
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AG
Makes sense, i have often wondered if we are facing two viruses the whole time. In a unique way, we have. So do we start infecting people with the cold? And if so, where do i sign up?
Kool
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AG
On the flip side, as I have read in some of the threads, there is also a concern for SARS CoV2 triggering Antibody Dependent Enhancement. Thus, older people who have been exposed to multiple Coronavirus infections in the past might have a MORE difficult time handling the virus than someone who is more Coronavirus naive. Only time will tell if this is a concern or not, and why, other than having a less vigorous immune system, older people are affected so severely.

I had a telemedicine visit with a CDC physician today. He informed me that the CDC is very concerned about false positive IgG tests with any of the serologic tests coming up. The worst thing one could do would be to tell a healthcare worker that they had antibodies to SARS CoV-2, when in fact they had antibodies to a similar Coronavirus that they had exposure to at some point in their life. If that person were then to be assigned to a COVID-19 unit, they might be less apt to adhere to universal precautions. The NIH is actively trying to do the same thing that the Germans are doing. If you want to participate in the study, I will include a link.

SARS-COV2 Pandemic Serosurvey and Blood Sampling

NIH begins study to quantify undetected cases of Coronavirus infection

Fears of "Wild West" as COVID-19 blood tests hit the market
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Diyala Nick
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AG
KidDoc said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

If the tests for COVID 19 antibiotics are cross reacting with other coronavirus antibodies, then it makes me wonder if there could be some immune system overlap. Something like coxpox/smallpox where the more benign virus confers some immunity to the worse one. It would help explain the large percentage of asymptomatic cases, and it would help explain why older people are more severely affected. Older people tend to have a muted immune response compared to younger people, and their transient immunites wane faster
You may end up being correct. Young children likely get routine COronovirus infections each year. COVID shares much of the same structure as the common virus so they likely have circulating IgM prior to exposure leading to immediate response before COVID can reach the lung tissue.


This idea was shot down early on by virologists, perhaps incorrectly. I think it would be really interesting to see Covid infection rates (especially severity) in adults who are parents of young children. The logic being that those parents are frequently and repeatedly picking up mild colds from their kiddos.

If it is cross-reactive in the serology tests, might is also be the same in the human body, and confer some partial immunity? (Much like a poorly matched flu shot)

Also, to add one thing - if there is an ADE issue, would it not be most severe in kids and teens, who likely have the most recent exposure to other corona viruses and would be more likely to have detectable IgG to a common beta cornona virus pre-Sarscov2 infection??
One Eyed Reveille
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And since there is at least a flu A and B could one of them potentially have more similarities with Covid and thus potentially explain certain regions getting it worse. I.e. that if B gives better immunity and B was more prevalent in LA and Houston but not in NYC?
Diyala Nick
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Sarduakar said:

And since there is at least a flu A and B could one of them potentially have more similarities with Covid and thus potentially explain certain regions getting it worse. I.e. that if B gives better immunity and B was more prevalent in LA and Houston but not in NYC?


I'm not remotely qualified to comment, but probably not. Influenza A and B are very different viruses that both fall under the category of "flu".

Also, although covid will mutate like any virus, this mutations will likely be much more gradual and less meaningful than flu, which is quick to mutate.
ham98
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If there are hundreds of different types of colds it would make sense to me that regional population immunity would have geographic variations. The states bordering Mexico have death rates that are fairly close to each other. Maybe the border state populations have a different resistance to covid19 than the northeastern states based on the similar bugs they share throughout the year.
Aggie1946
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Could we purposely infect people with a weaker coronavirus to help build their immunity to Covid 19?
ramblin_ag02
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My thought was more to do with titers. Younger people tend to produce way more antibodies when exposed or infected. So even if the antibodies to other coronavirus are only weakly effective, maybe the levels are just so high that it swamps COVID.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
KidDoc
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It is highly unlikely there are significant variants of COVID- we know the entire RNA sequence so it would be pretty easy to discover singificant variants that cause a different illness.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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