NYT article on proning w/ O2 vs. intubation

2,083 Views | 13 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Demo_Slug
cone
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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronavirus.html

Quote:

The biggest change: Instead of quickly sedating people who had shockingly low levels of oxygen and then putting them on mechanical ventilators, many doctors are now keeping patients conscious, having them roll over in bed, recline in chairs and continue to breathe on their own with additional oxygen for as long as possible.

The idea is to get them off their backs and thereby make more lung available. A number of doctors are even trying patients on a special massage mattress designed for pregnant women because it has cutouts that ease the load on the belly and chest.
Quote:

Yet many Covid-19 patients remain alert, even when their oxygen has sharply fallen, for reasons health care workers can only guess. (Another important signal about how sick the patients are from Covid-19 the presence of inflammatory markers in the blood is not available to physicians until laboratory work is done.)

Some patients, by taking oxygen and rolling onto their sides or on their bellies, have quickly returned to normal levels. The tactic is called proning.

Doctors at Montefiore Medical Center in the Bronx and Mount Sinai Medical Center in Manhattan have described it on Twitter; a flier is posted next to beds at Elmhurst Hospital Center in Queens as a guide for patients on how often to turn themselves.

At Lincoln Hospital in the Bronx, Dr. Nicholas Caputo followed 50 patients who arrived with low oxygen levels between 69 and 85 percent (95 is normal). After five minutes of proning, they had improved to a mean of 94 percent. Over the next 24 hours, nearly three-quarters were able to avoid intubation; 13 needed ventilators. Proning does not seem to work as well in older patients, a number of doctors said.

No one knows yet if this will be a lasting remedy, Dr. Caputo said, but if he could go back to early March, he would advise himself and others: "Don't jump to intubation."

The total number of people who are intubated is now increasing by 21 per day, down from about 300 at the end of March. The need for mechanical ventilators, while still urgent, has been less than the medical community anticipated a month ago.

One reason is that contrary to expectations, a number of doctors at New York hospitals believe intubation is helping fewer people with Covid-19 than other respiratory illnesses and that longer stays on the mechanical ventilators lead to other serious complications. The matter is far from settled.

"Intubated patients with Covid lung disease are doing very poorly, and while this may be the disease and not the mechanical ventilation, most of us believe that intubation is to be avoided until unequivocally required," Dr. Strayer said.

This shift has lightened the load on nursing staffs and the rest of the hospital. "You put a tube into somebody," Dr. Levitan said, "and the amount of work required not to kill that person goes up by a factor of 100," creating a cascade that slows down laboratory results, X-rays and other care.

By committing all the resources of the hospital to highly complex care, mass mechanical ventilation of patients forms a medical Maginot line.

For heavier patients, Dr. Levitan advocates combining breathing support from a CPAP machine or regular oxygen with comfortable positioning on a pregnancy massage mattress. He had one shipped to the hotel where he was staying in New York and brought it to Bellevue.

The first patient to rest on it arrived with oxygen saturation in the 40s, breathing rapidly and with an abnormally fast heartbeat, he said. After the patient was given oxygen through a nasal cannula clear plastic tubes that fit into the nostrils Dr. Levitan helped her to lie face down on the massage table. The oxygen level in her blood climbed to the mid-90s, he said, her pulse slowed to under 100 and she was breathing at a more normal pace. "She slept for two hours," he said.

His brothers are donating more mattresses.

"We have to see how it pans out, but it makes a lot of sense," Dr. Swaminathan said. "Obesity is clearly a critical risk factor."

Dr. Josh Farkas, who specializes in pulmonary and critical care medicine at the University of Vermont, said the risks of proning were low. "This is a simple technique which is safe and fairly easy to do," Dr. Farkas said. "I started doing this some years ago in occasional patients, but never imagined that it would become this widespread and useful."

This was rebuilding the engine on a car going 100 miles per hour.

"I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple of weeks someone around the country comes up with better way to do this," Dr. Swaminathan said.
Marcus Aurelius
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Yep. Dealing with this today. I have 3 teetering. Trying to avoid ETT/MV. Getting the awake non-intubated one to do it is sometimes challenging. As it is uncomfortable in some.
Duncan Idaho
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I seem to remember googling "proning" after one of our good doctors posted something anecdotal about this.

RandyAg98
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Marcus Aurelius said:

Yep. Dealing with this today. I have 3 teetering. Trying to avoid ETT/MV. Getting the awake non-intubated one to do it is sometimes challenging. As it is uncomfortable in some.
Any more anecdotal reports on toci?
Marcus Aurelius
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Well. Have a patient that I am close to using it on. Our pharmacy has one dose. The other patient was discharged who received it.
RandyAg98
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Man, I sure wish that was more widely available to y'all.
cone
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Quote:

The first patient to rest on it arrived with oxygen saturation in the 40s, breathing rapidly and with an abnormally fast heartbeat, he said. After the patient was given oxygen through a nasal cannula clear plastic tubes that fit into the nostrils Dr. Levitan helped her to lie face down on the massage table. The oxygen level in her blood climbed to the mid-90s, he said, her pulse slowed to under 100 and she was breathing at a more normal pace.
this above paragraph reads as almost unbelievable

more evidence to support HAI

https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=230110

Quote:

Some patients with severe COVID-19 appear to improve using ARDS treatment protocols. However, "an overwhelming number of patients" in northern Italy showed characteristics "in sharp contrast to expectations for severe ARDS," according to a letter to the editor published in late March by the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine.

The letter's author, anesthesiologist Dr. Luciano Gattinoni, led Brooklyn's Dr. Kyle-Sidell to change his approach at the front lines of treatment. But his efforts to shift the protocol forced the New York doctor to step down from his ICU position to work in the emergency room instead, where he could ethically use his experience and new techniques outside the standard ICU protocol.

Based on Dr. Gattinoni's observations, as well as his own experiences and those of colleagues, Dr. Kyle-Sidell began to look for other conditions as a modelspecifically "the bends," or depressurization sickness experienced by SCUBA divers, and high-altitude sickness.

"Clinically (some COVID-19 patients) look a lot more like high-altitude sickness than they do pneumonia," he said.
Quote:

Dr. Kyle-Sidell was influenced to treat his patients differently after reading Dr. Gattinoni's letter.
He described what he found in the letter was a description of two different types of patient with severe lung problems from COVID-19.

"If you think of the lungs as a balloon, typically when people have ARDS or pneumonia, the balloon gets thicker," Dr. Kyle-Sidell told Medscape. "So not only do you lack oxygen, but the pressure and the work to blow up the balloon becomes greater. So one's respiratory muscles become tired as they struggle to breathe. And patients need pressure. What Gattinoni is saying is that there are essentially two different phenotypes, one in which the balloon is thicker. (But) imagine if the balloon is not actually thicker but thinner, so they'd suffer from a lack of oxygen. But it is not that they suffer from too much work to blow up the balloon."

In other words, some COVID-19 patients have little trouble "blowing up the balloon" of their lungs, yet still suffer from low oxygen.

For patients of COVID-19 who show these symptoms, Dr. Kyle-Sidell began to apply an "oxygen first" treatment method.

This means getting patients' blood-oxygen levels as high as possible, and doing so using the lowest air pressure possible, he said.

And for him, that meant stepping down from his role in the intensive care unit.

"These didn't fit the protocol, and the protocol is what the hospital runs on," he told Medscape. "We ran into an impasse where I could not morally, in a patient-doctor relationship, continue the current protocols which, again, are the protocols of the top hospitals in the country. I could not continue those. You can't have one doctor just doing their own protocol. So I had to step down."

The role switch may be good news for the doctor and his 'oxygen first' strategy; in his new emergency room role at Maimonides in Brooklyn, Dr. Kyle-Sidell is setting up to use a new ventilation strategy based on Dr. Gattinoni's latest recommendations.
cone
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AG
anyone got a iron lung lying around?
Marcus Aurelius
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Proning is not new. It has been used for decades in ARDS. As I've mentioned on other threads. The literature is mixed. No real mortality benefit in ARDS. But consistently oxygenation is improved. May confer mortality benefit in COVID-19 ARDS however. Research ongoing.
ham98
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cone said:

anyone got a iron lung lying around?
I've wondered if increasing the ambient air pressure would help oxygenation significantly.
Herknav
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//Why not utilize hyperbaric medicine therapy to super saturate lungs tissues with 100% oxygen. Severely affected CV patients might benefit as have wound healing diabetic treatments with oxygen saturation have done for years rather than intubate and deal with complications that this protocol intales.//Just my thoughts.
Marcus Aurelius
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Good idea But impractical. Hyperbaric chambers are large bulky devices stored in separate areas of hospital. Can't be used in an ICU now.
Kool
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I can't imagine how difficult, if not impossible, it would be to decontaminate an HBO2 chamber. Plus, you can only put someone into a dive for so long and so often. Interesting thought, though.
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FCBlitz
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Marcus Aurelius said:

Well. Have a patient that I am close to using it on. Our pharmacy has one dose. The other patient was discharged who received it.


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Demo_Slug
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They talking bout tocilizumab bro
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