What threshold is needed for herd immunity?

3,860 Views | 23 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by DadHammer
Keegan99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
https://judithcurry.com/2020/05/10/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought/#more-26133

It's probably a LOT lower than the simplistic 1 - 1/R0 would suggest.

Why? Because social interactions are not homogeneous.

Simplistically, it's a graph theory problem. There are a small number of people with a large number of connections. These are potential super spreaders. But once these individuals are removed from the graph via immunity, R plummets.

One does not need, say, 60% of the population to be immune to have herd immunity. Rather, one needs 60% of the interactions in a population to involve someone with immunity, and given the social graph, that could be accomplished by a much smaller portion of the population, and will vary based on factors like density, mass transit, culture, etc.

The conclusions from the above paper:


Quote:

Incorporating, in a reasonable manner, inhomogeneity in susceptibility and infectivity in a standard SEIR epidemiological model, rather than assuming a homogeneous population, causes a very major reduction in the herd immunity threshold, and also in the ultimate infection level if the epidemic thereafter follows an unconstrained path. Therefore, the number of fatalities involved in achieving herd immunity is much lower than it would otherwise be.

In my view, the true herd immunity threshold probably lies somewhere between the 7% and 24% implied by the cases illustrated in Figures 4 and 5. If it were around 17%, which evidence from Stockholm County suggests the resulting fatalities from infections prior to the HIT being reached should be a very low proportion of the population. The Stockholm infection fatality rate appears to be approximately 0.4%,[url=https://judithcurry.com/2020/05/10/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought/#_edn20][20][/url] considerably lower than per the Verity et al.[url=https://judithcurry.com/2020/05/10/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought/#_edn21][21][/url] estimates used in Ferguson20, with a fatality rate of under 0.1% from infections until the HIT was reached. The fatality rate to reach the HIT in less densely populated areas should be lower, because R0 is positively related to population density.[url=https://judithcurry.com/2020/05/10/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought/#_edn22][22][/url] Accordingly, total fatalities should be well under 0.1% of the population by the time herd immunity is achieved. Although there would be subsequent further fatalities, as the epidemic shrinks it should be increasingly practicable to hasten its end by using testing and contact tracing to prevent infections spreading, and thus substantially reduce the number of further fatalities below those projected by the SEIR model in a totally unmitigated scenario.
cone
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
the super spread aspect of this bug throws all those herd immunity estimates into question

what is the Rt in a society that can economically cope with a long term restriction on mass gatherings?
Diyala Nick
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I think you are both right.

Oddly, the Super Spreader issue is more of an OSHA type problem than a CDC one.

On other hand, a graph model of interactions would lead you to immunize the most connected nodes in order to arrive at broader protection for the population. Interestingly, I would imagine the natural course of the pandemic is likely to immunize those highly connected nodes early, as compared to a vaccine program that targets overall volume.

Netting it out, I think we will see a lot more of all of the below:

1. Super Spreader events
2. A dramatically lower fatality rate
3. A steadily decreasing R0, in spite of the Super Spreader events.
Keegan99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Super spreading, in aggregate, is not about events. It's about people. Only certain individuals have that potential from a social perspective. You need lots of sustained, close interactions with lots of contact.

As a result, the calculations for herd immunity are wrong because they don't take that into account. They assume homogeneity of the social graph.

Moreover, the value of R is also overestimated both early in the curve (which is accelerated upward as these highly connected individuals do what they do) and overestimated later as these individuals are no longer available, and spread potential is greatly constrained.

Think of it like median vs mean. Early, when these individuals are present in the pool, the mean value of R is large and these individuals have an outsized impact on the infection curve. 49 individuals infecting 1 person and 1 individual infecting 50 makes R look like 2. But very quickly, the median value of R dominates, and the curve descends faster than projected because without that 50 thrown in the mix (and again, very few people have the social potential to be a 50), R gets to 1. Or less. Herd immunity arrives much, much faster than anticipated.
BiochemAg97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Keegan99 said:

Super spreading, in aggregate, is not about events. It's about people. Only certain individuals have that potential from a social perspective. You need lots of sustained, close interactions with lots of contact.

As a result, the calculations for herd immunity are wrong because they don't take that into account. They assume homogeneity of the social graph.

Moreover, the value of R is also overestimated both early in the curve (which is accelerated upward as these highly connected individuals do what they do) and overestimated later as these individuals are no longer available, and spread potential is greatly constrained.

Think of it like median vs mean. Early, when these individuals are present in the pool, the mean value of R is large and these individuals have an outsized impact on the infection curve. 49 individuals infecting 1 person and 1 individual infecting 50 makes R look like 2. But very quickly, the median value of R dominates, and the curve descends faster than projected because without that 50 thrown in the mix (and again, very few people have the social potential to be a 50), R gets to 1. Or less. Herd immunity arrives much, much faster than anticipated.

I think that ignores events. I am not one of those people with sufficient connections in my everyday life to have 50 contacts, but during a normal football season on any given Saturday, I would have prolonged contact with 50+ ppl. First at a tailgate and then in the stands.

Also, the scientific understanding of herd immunity is based on experience with past diseases. Since super spreaders (people or events) aren't new, those factors are built in to the past experience. What is truly different here is the mass lockdowns, social distancing, and other behavior changes. Those changes can bend R down and contain an outbreak (R<1 for sufficient time), but if they aren't permanent changes, an outbreak after those changes go away will still spread. true herd immunity (minimizing future outbreaks) will likely require more than would be suggested by late stage first wave with mitigation strategies in place.
Keegan99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
In past diseases, most of them observed many decades ago, the social graph was far more homogeneous.
HotardAg07
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
From Carl Bergstrom:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/01/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-herd-immunity.html

Quote:

Perhaps most important to understand, the virus doesn't magically disappear when the herd immunity threshold is reached. That's not when things stop it's only when they start to slow down.

Once enough immunity has been built in the population, each person will infect fewer than one other person, so a new epidemic cannot start afresh. But an epidemic that is already underway will continue to spread. If 100,000 people are infectious at the peak and they each infect 0.9 people, that's still 90,000 new infections, and more after that. A runaway train doesn't stop the instant the track begins to slope uphill, and a rapidly spreading virus doesn't stop right when herd immunity is attained.

If the pandemic went uncontrolled in the United States, it could continue for months after herd immunity was reached, infecting many more millions in the process.

By the time the epidemic ended, a very large proportion of the population would have been infected far above our expected herd immunity threshold of around two-thirds. These additional infections are what epidemiologists refer to as "overshoot."
Keegan99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

If the pandemic went uncontrolled in the United States, it could continue for months after herd immunity was reached, infecting many more millions in the process.


No.

We don't even have "millions" of confirmed cases currently. We have 1.8. And confirmed case rates are dropping.
Duncan Idaho
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Thanks for posting this.

Herd immunity isnt about the current epidemic...it ensures that when the pathogen is Re-introduced to a population, it is unable to establish a viable chain of transmission
HotardAg07
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Keegan99 said:

Quote:

If the pandemic went uncontrolled in the United States, it could continue for months after herd immunity was reached, infecting many more millions in the process.


No.

We don't even have "millions" of confirmed cases currently. We have 1.8. And confirmed case rates are dropping.
Keegan, all he is saying is that hitting herd immunity does not stop the virus in it's tracks. There is an overshoot that depends on the level of active infections at the time that herd immunity is reached.

To me, the discussion that I have not seen happen on herd immunity is -- we know it is based on a % of the "susceptible population" developing antibodies. However, it seems fair to say that all US citizens are not susceptible persons. If, purely for example, 30% of the population has some immunity due to some cross reactivity with other antibodies, then we would reach herd immunity benefits way before we reached 60-70% of total population becoming infected.
JamesE4
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
HotardAg07 said:

Keegan99 said:

Quote:

If the pandemic went uncontrolled in the United States, it could continue for months after herd immunity was reached, infecting many more millions in the process.


No.

We don't even have "millions" of confirmed cases currently. We have 1.8. And confirmed case rates are dropping.
Keegan, all he is saying is that hitting herd immunity does not stop the virus in it's tracks. There is an overshoot that depends on the level of active infections at the time that herd immunity is reached.

To me, the discussion that I have not seen happen on herd immunity is -- we know it is based on a % of the "susceptible population" developing antibodies. However, it seems fair to say that all US citizens are not susceptible persons. If, purely for example, 30% of the population has some immunity due to some cross reactivity with other antibodies, then we would reach herd immunity benefits way before we reached 60-70% of total population becoming infected.
Hotard,

I have been saying the same thing, and I think eventually it will be proven out.

I also believe "susceptible" is not a yes/no answer, it is a range, from very susceptible (a small exposure is enough) to very "not susceptible" where it would take sustained contact or exposure to a high load of virus.


Keegan99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Totally agree on that point. I also suspect that is a large reason why some of the Asian-Pacific countries have fared quite well, despite wildly varying public policies.
BiochemAg97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Keegan99 said:

Totally agree on that point. I also suspect that is a large reason why some of the Asian-Pacific countries have fared quite well, despite wildly varying public policies.
Cross reactivity to SARS antibodies that hit the Asian countries much harder than US?

dragmagpuff
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
BiochemAg97 said:

Keegan99 said:

Totally agree on that point. I also suspect that is a large reason why some of the Asian-Pacific countries have fared quite well, despite wildly varying public policies.
Cross reactivity to SARS antibodies that hit the Asian countries much harder than US?


Did SARS 1 infect enough people for that? There were only 8,096 total confirmed cases, and only 2,769 outside of China.
BiochemAg97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
dragmagpuff said:

BiochemAg97 said:

Keegan99 said:

Totally agree on that point. I also suspect that is a large reason why some of the Asian-Pacific countries have fared quite well, despite wildly varying public policies.
Cross reactivity to SARS antibodies that hit the Asian countries much harder than US?


Did SARS 1 infect enough people for that? There were only 8,096 total confirmed cases, and only 2,769 outside of China.

Hard to say. I don't recall any studies of antibodies that identified what % of population was exposed and didn't get sick. Was SARS as lethal as everyone believed, or was there also a significant asymptomatic population. You would think it would have been harder to contain if there was a huge asymptomatic reservoir.

Another possibility is regular exposure to bat populations and closely related viruses that are not infectious/disease causing for humans but trigger a cross reactive immune response. I think there was someone who looked at a village close to the bats in China and discovered that a lot of people had antibodies, likely from regular exposure to bat viruses. not sure if that was COVID antibodies, SARS antibodies, or something else.
Keegan99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG


It's more like a Pareto Distribution.
Beat40
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Keegan99 said:



It's more like a Pareto Distribution.



Just got done with like a week of possible super spreading. It's going to be really interesting to see what the effect of this last week will be. Really am hoping things stay within control.
Douph
How long do you want to ignore this user?
What makes you think we will achieve herd immunity. We have not achieved herd immunity with the typical covid cold. Nor have we developed a vaccine for the covid cold
BiochemAg97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Douph said:

What makes you think we will achieve herd immunity. We have not achieved herd immunity with the typical covid cold. Nor have we developed a vaccine for the covid cold
There is no point in a vaccine for the common cold that only protects against a virus that causes 1/3 or less of the common cold (rhinovirus being responsible for most winter colds and non-polio enterovirus being responsible for most summer colds). How many people are going to line up for a vaccine that offers a 30% reduction in your chance of getting a cold, which most people ignore or confuse with seasonal allergies anyway? Nor are the clinical trials going to be very effective when the subjects will still get the cold from other viruses.

I think you also misunderstand herd immunity. It doesn't mean no one gets the virus anymore, but rather there are a sufficient number of non-susceptible people that you don't get large scale outbreaks. that is, the virus doesn't find many new hosts and doesn't continue to spread. Outside of young children, often in the first few years of going to school and mixing in a large group of other susceptible individuals, the cold doesn't exactly run through large groups of people.
DTP02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
BiochemAg97 said:

Keegan99 said:

Totally agree on that point. I also suspect that is a large reason why some of the Asian-Pacific countries have fared quite well, despite wildly varying public policies.
Cross reactivity to SARS antibodies that hit the Asian countries much harder than US?




That and/or possibly some of the vaccinations which are more prevalent over there that have been hypothesized to provide some protection like BCG. As I recall there were some early studies that indicated a benefit from BCG but I don't know if there have been any updates.
DTP02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Keegan99 said:



It's more like a Pareto Distribution.



The craziest stat there is that 70% didn't pass the virus to anyone.

I wonder if we will ever be able to figure out what seems to make a limited number of people such effective spreaders to the extent that we could formulate a predictive (thus preventive) model. I don't mean find out this year, but ever.
cbr
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
There remains so much disinformation on this virus that i dont even know if immunity will really exist or if this sucker lingers and/or recurs.
AggieFactor
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Does anyone know if they are running antibody studies on the initial group of infected that started this thing in February? We are closing in on four months from the initial outbreak so we should start to see some baseline numbers of how long immunity is lasting, correct? What about those over in Italy? Don't trust anything coming out of China at this point.
eric76
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
DTP02 said:

Keegan99 said:



It's more like a Pareto Distribution.



The craziest stat there is that 70% didn't pass the virus to anyone.

I wonder if we will ever be able to figure out what seems to make a limited number of people such effective spreaders to the extent that we could formulate a predictive (this preventive) model. I don't mean find out this year, but ever.
Perhaps it is those who ignore that they have it and feel that they have every right to go out in public and ignore the danger it may pose to others.
DadHammer
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
If they didn't have immunity the numbers of infected in Italy would be way higher.

Look at their stats now, covid is almost gone.
Refresh
Page 1 of 1
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.