To Doctors, Epidemiologists, and Others with Expertise: Vaccine

3,402 Views | 18 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Rachel 98
Beat40
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Something I've been thinking about, and I think a lot of others are thinking about as well is the likelihood of a vaccine for COVID.

In your opinion, how confident are you there will be a vaccine for COVID?
Crocs
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AG
What other choice do we have
eric76
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AG
Crocs said:

What other choice do we have
Working to develop a vaccine is a choice. Whether or not it works isn't a choice.
Gordo14
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I think the vaccines look very promising do far. Given that the virus isn't like AIDs and doesn't systematically attack your immune system, and it isn't a very fast mutating virus odds are very good there's a pathway to a vaccine. Furthermore, we've got nearly infinte resources thrown into this, and multiple different approaches. Odds are good we will get one. Honestly, even a mild improvement in immune response at the onset of infection would likely make a huge difference
74OA
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AG
Another question: With the recent reporting that natural virus immunity only remains effective for a limited time, does that indicate that a vaccine will similarly only remain effective for a limited time, too?
Big Al 1992
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AG
There has got to be something - immune response, DNA, genetic marker, physiology, etc - that they can identify why 20 year olds and younger are not impacted by this virus. Then copy that.
agforlife97
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AG
I know that verterinarians have tried for years to develop vaccines to certain dog coronaviruses and have not been successful. I also know that there has never been a successful coronavirus vaccine in humans.
Gordo14
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agforlife97 said:

I know that verterinarians have tried for years to develop vaccines to certain dog coronaviruses and have not been successful. I also know that there has never been a successful coronavirus vaccine in humans.


There's never been a commercial reason to make one for humans. The common cold isn't worth developing a vaccine for. SARS and MERS died out too quick.

And people accuse me of being a "doomsayer". I just think the best outcome by a few orders of magnitude is limit the spread, manage the economic damage, and go all in on a vaccine.
KlinkerAg11
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AG
Agree 100 percent.
FlyRod
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Also agreed. The pie in the sky "let it burn through everyone and get to herd immunity" is at this juncture 100% wishful thinking and fantasy. Also possible a vaccine is too, sadly, but a much surer way do really resolve this.
cone
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AG
i'd like the explanation on how the economic damage is going to be managed
Rachel 98
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agforlife97 said:

I know that verterinarians have tried for years to develop vaccines to certain dog coronaviruses and have not been successful. I also know that there has never been a successful coronavirus vaccine in humans.


The coronavirus vaccine for dogs is actually quite effective. It's just not given all that frequently anymore since the coronavirus infection is very mild (this is a GI virus) and it really only affects young puppies.

I had this discussion just the other day with Dr. Alice Wolf (taught us immunology at TAMU CVM).
KlinkerAg11
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AG
I'm surprised how far along we are on a vaccine.

I think there are 4 different types being developed.
amercer
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AG
We have never thrown this amount of resources into a vaccine effort. Never.

Doesn't mean it will be successful, but my money is on multiple vaccines being available by spring 2021.
AgsMyDude
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AG
They were very close to the SARS vaccine. But like you said, it fizzled out so did funding.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/scientists-were-close-coronavirus-vaccine-years-ago-then-money-dried-n1150091
Gordo14
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cone said:

i'd like the explanation on how the economic damage is going to be managed


Give livable unemployment benefits up until a few months after this virus has been solved, Provide (potentially forgiveable) bridge loans and lines of credit to businesses so that their infrastructure and business can survive the hit and come out on the other side, keep credit markets from being dislocated, provide ample liquidity through the crisis, etc. Basically what we have been doing. It's not going to be perfect, and there will be issues created and large deficit spending for another year or two, but all of that can be managed and is not as immediate of a concern either way - I'd rather spread out the problem into many manageable problems over the decade than have go all in today. Interest rates are exceptionally low providing the perfect opportunity for deficit spending. Inflation getting too hot, which we may be very far away from structurally, can always be addressed by unwinding the fed balance sheet, decreasing government spending, and raising interest rates in the future. We don't have an issue with lack of demand for treasury bonds even at basically 1% interest rates on the 10-yr (so basically nobody thinks inflation is a real threat).

The economic damage is going to happen. We will not stop some really bad economic outcomes from happening no matter what we do. We can make it less bad however, and keeping businesses alive is a big part of that. The economic damage will be and always has been a function of the spread of the virus. It's why I cautioned everybody in the "let's get back to work" crowd. Great populust rallying cry, but completely useless when it comes to crafting meaningful policy. It's arguably going to be a lot worse because we let the virus spread too much already. We either will likely have to start shutting things down again in the near future or the virus will forcibly shut things down - which absolutely is worse by every conceivable metric. Furthermore, many businesses are more profitable (i.e. lose less) shut down than operating at reduced capacities anyways. The key to economic mitigation in recovery is the virus. Everything else is a false promise (like basically the last month) before the brutal reality that things beyond our control are too powerful to ignore.

I've always advocated for getting case count down to controllable levels, testing extensively, and contract tracing. That was the narrow window we had if we were patient and focused enough to do it (like all of Europe which has restarted their sports leagues and has case new case counts approaching that of Texas alone). And the result was we had **** all as a strategy, and the economic damage is going to be worse because of it.

I've posted many times the Fed's case study on the Spanish Flu. Cities that focused on controlling the spread of the virus (where more "shut down") not only experienced less economic damage, but also recovered much quicker than cities that did not. I know it keeps falling on deaf ears, but maybe the fact that I'm backing my statements with research instead of slogans will eventually gain some traction.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3561560

While this paper was written after the start of the pandemic, the Fed also has papers written in 2007 that basically come to the same conclusions.

We need a structured, calculated, and rational approach to dealing with this problem. We don't need empty platitudes that encourage ignorance. Trying to encourage everyone to pretend the virus isn't real or that there is nothing better that can be done does not address the problem. The damage is real, it's awful, but their is also a range of outcomes. If you've paid attention the Fed they have made it clear, we will not truly recover economically until we get past this virus. Maybe we should pay attention to them in addition to the nation's leading epidemiologists when crafting policy and forming opinions.
cone
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AG
livable benefits until after the virus is solved

lol okay

that was a good starter. glad you followed it with like 2000 words.

should have just wrote money printer go brrr
agforlife97
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AG
Rachel 98 said:

agforlife97 said:

I know that verterinarians have tried for years to develop vaccines to certain dog coronaviruses and have not been successful. I also know that there has never been a successful coronavirus vaccine in humans.


The coronavirus vaccine for dogs is actually quite effective. It's just not given all that frequently anymore since the coronavirus infection is very mild (this is a GI virus) and it really only affects young puppies.

I had this discussion just the other day with Dr. Alice Wolf (taught us immunology at TAMU CVM).
My understanding was that it was a combo vaccine that was given to dogs for multiple viruses and was pulled from the market for some reason, perhaps for the reason you mentioned.

In any case, making vaccines for this type of virus is very hard at a minimum. To think we'll have a vaccine that works in time for late fall is basically fairytale type thinking. It will likely be 2-3 years or more.
normaleagle05
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AG
Gordo14 said:

agforlife97 said:

I know that verterinarians have tried for years to develop vaccines to certain dog coronaviruses and have not been successful. I also know that there has never been a successful coronavirus vaccine in humans.


There's never been a commercial reason to make one for humans. The common cold isn't worth developing a vaccine for. SARS and MERS died out too quick.

And people accuse me of being a "doomsayer". I just think the best outcome by a few orders of magnitude is limit the spread, manage the economic damage, and go all in on a vaccine.

The above is incredibly bad information.

Just one look at the "common" cold.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/215118
Rachel 98
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AG
agforlife97 said:

Rachel 98 said:

agforlife97 said:

I know that verterinarians have tried for years to develop vaccines to certain dog coronaviruses and have not been successful. I also know that there has never been a successful coronavirus vaccine in humans.


The coronavirus vaccine for dogs is actually quite effective. It's just not given all that frequently anymore since the coronavirus infection is very mild (this is a GI virus) and it really only affects young puppies.

I had this discussion just the other day with Dr. Alice Wolf (taught us immunology at TAMU CVM).
My understanding was that it was a combo vaccine that was given to dogs for multiple viruses and was pulled from the market for some reason, perhaps for the reason you mentioned.

In any case, making vaccines for this type of virus is very hard at a minimum. To think we'll have a vaccine that works in time for late fall is basically fairytale type thinking. It will likely be 2-3 years or more.
No, you can definitely still buy the coronavirus vaccine for dogs. I probably give it to several puppies each month at least. I don't generally recommend it for most dogs but there are some specific cases where it is useful. And it is a stand-alone vaccine. What you might be thinking of is it is a liquid vaccine and is sometimes used to reconstitute the DHPP combo vaccine (which comes in a powder cake), so it is all combined in one syringe.
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