Nobel Prize Winner Michael Levitt shreds the politics and science surrounding COVID p

7,065 Views | 49 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Keegan99
Keegan99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Dr. Levitt is a quantitative genius, and he is furious.



"And the fact is that epidemiology and modeling has been a disgrace. They have not looked at the data. They have been wrong at every turn."

"We're going to see that although coronavirus is a different disease, the net impact of death is going to be very similar to a severe flu."

Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
"Exactly as deadly as the flu" is provably false. The worst flu season in the last several decades (2017-18) saw a total of around 60,000 deaths in the US. We have double that now despite 2 months of locking down. 1 in every 500 NYC inhabitants died from COVID. This is pretty clearly not the flu. I won't get into discussions regarding whether a full lockdown was necessary, but it is hard to take someone seriously who fails to acknowledge the very basic understanding that this is quite clearly much worse than the flu.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Keegan99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG





Anyone can read the paper and feel free to attack the numbers.
Keegan99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Depends on who is doing the counting and how the counting is done.

Mathematically, COVID is about 3-4 weeks of death. Dr. Levitt explains in the video above.

culdeus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The net impact that results in this being a severe flu, is driven by the fact that the >65years overweight the death rate. That's cherry picking of the the highest order.

That's what this guy's rant boiled down to.

If you want to hospice >65 year old people have at it. Otherwise what you want us to do?

Sweeden told their olds to go away. We don't seem to have the stomach for that.
JP_Losman
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
He said a "severe" flu. So think 1968 Hong Kong flu or 1957-58 flu

Drip99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Well I sure wish this **** would have taken the summer off like the flu. Would have been nice to have a break
Keegan99
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
It's a bit more than that. Look at his data and modeling. He's not cherry picking.
The_Fox
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

"Exactly as deadly as the flu" is provably false. The worst flu season in the last several decades (2017-18) saw a total of around 60,000 deaths in the US. We have double that now despite 2 months of locking down. 1 in every 500 NYC inhabitants died from COVID. This is pretty clearly not the flu. I won't get into discussions regarding whether a full lockdown was necessary, but it is hard to take someone seriously who fails to acknowledge the very basic understanding that this is quite clearly much worse than the flu.
Is it worse than the flu for those under 50?
Complete Idiot
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I am not sure what exactly he is ranting against since I looked back in FEbruary/March timeframes and it looks like he was all for lockdowns. Is he ranting against the "2 million US dead if zero lockdown" type models? Is he suggesting scientists did not discuss this topic back in February/march? That seems hard to believe, but he is saying no one discussed it with him and things would have gone differently if groups of scientists had talked on Zoom. If that's true, and scientists weren't discussing this, where does that failure lay? I'm trying to figure out the target of his rant and what he is really saying. This was him quoted in a March 25th article:

"Levitt said he can see a better outcome in the U.S. than what has taken place in China, Italy or Iran, especially with social distancing measures in place. He said social-distancing mandates are critical in cutting the number of coronavirus cases. "

BAck in February/MArch he got acclaim for predicting the end of the China outbreak. He predicted in February only 80 something K cases and less than 4 K deaths in China, and that's how he got some attention apparently. But this was from an article at that time:

_______________

"When they answered us, describing how complicated their situation was, I decided to take a deeper look at the numbers in the hope of reaching some conclusion," Levitt explained. "The rate of infection of the virus in the Hubei province increased by 30% each daythat is a scary statistic. I am not an influenza expert but I can analyze numbers and that is exponential growth." At this rate, the entire world should have been infected within 90 days, he said.



But then, the trend changed. When Levitt started analyzing the data on February 1, Hubei had 1,800 new cases each day and within six days this number reached 4,700, he said. "And then, on February 7, the number of new infections started to drop linearly and did not stop. A week later, the same happened with the number of the deaths. This dramatic change in the curve marked the median point and enabled better prediction of when the pandemic will end. Based on that, I concluded that the situation in all of China will improve within two weeks. And, indeed, now there are very few new infection cases.

_____________________

Hubei locked down between January 22nd and 27th, I find it strange and not entirely scientific he feels he can understand and estimate the true nature of the virus in a non-locked down environment by using data from a locked down population. From wikipedia:

__________________________

Soon after Wuhan's January 23 lockdown, Huanggang and Ezhou, two Hubei cities bordering Wuhan, followed suit, suspending their public transport systems.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Hubei#cite_note-118][118][/url] By January 24, Huangshi, Chibi, Jingzhou, Yichang, Xiaogan, Jingmen, Zhijiang, Qianjiang, Xiantao, Xianning, Dangyang and Enshi restricted inbound and outbound traffic, affecting over 40 million residents.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Hubei#cite_note-119][119][/url] With Xiangyang becoming the last Hubei city to declare lockdown, all of Hubei's cities are quarantined by January 27 with local access to the road and railway networks temporarily shut down.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Hubei#cite_note-:16-21][21][/url] Forest-covered Shennongjia is the only part of Hubei that has not been locked down.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Hubei#cite_note-:31-117][117][/url]

At least 56 million Hubei's residents were isolated. All public places except hospitals, supermarkets, farmers' markets, gas stations and drug stores were closed.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Hubei#cite_note-120][120][/url] Starting from February 1, the Hubei city of Huanggang introduced a curfew which allows only one member of a local family to shop on the streets every two days, making it the first city to restrict the people from going outdoors.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Hubei#cite_note-DayHigh-22][22][/url]


_______________________

But maybe he understood that and was just predicting it would end.....with a lockdown and changed behavior. But again, if that's the case, I don't know what he is railing against? Was he FOR lockdown back in March but has learned more by the video above and says we shouldn't have locked down at all in hindsight, due to the fact average ages of death before and during the pandemic has only been reduced by 3-4 weeks (I think that is what he is saying, correct?). From the same article in early March that I quoted above:

_______________________

Another reason the infection rate has slowed has to do with the physical distance guidelines. "You don't hug every person you meet on the street now, and you'll avoid meeting face to face with someone that has a cold, like we did," Levitt said. "The more you adhere, the more you can keep infection in check. So, under these circumstances, a carrier will only infect 1.5 people every three days and the rate will keep going down."



Quarantine makes a difference, according to Levitt, but there are other factors at work. "We know China was under almost complete quarantine, people only left home to do crucial shopping and avoided contact with others. In Wuhan, which had the highest number of infection cases in the Hubei province, everyone had a chance of getting infected, but only 3% caught it," he explained. "Even on the Diamond Princess (the virus-stricken cruise ship), the infection rate did not top 20%." Based on these statistics, Levitt said, he concluded that many people are just naturally immune to the virus.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Hubei#cite_note-DayHigh-22][/url]

_______________________________

I do see data suggesting the 15-20% infected rate is all that is needed before the outbreak abates, I understand his point there and want to keep looking at the data that we continue to gather.

He's being quoted as saying a lockdown was critical to limiting spread, he used data collected DURING a lockdown in China to predict when China would have an end to the pandemic, he says in the video above Germany locked down TOO EARLY and is now having a second outbreak, he is saying the lockdowns have caused great financial loss and will lock 9/11 look like nothing and people should be criminally prosecuted - it all seems a bit contradictory and I am still not sure I am clear on what he is saying SHOULD have happened and how this SHOULD have been handled. He did admit in the video it's incredibly complex and we should have been guided by a team of scientists who were discussing things, but didn't say what should have been done.
tysker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

Mathematically, COVID is about 3-4 weeks of death.
Back of the envelope arithmetic suggests this would still lead to about 200,000 deaths (given approx 2.8 million US annual) which is what many of us were 'guessing' and what 'felt like the ultimate number would be' back in March.

I'd say that is much more than a 'severe flu' especially for those over 65 and those in LTC facilities. However those deaths are impacted at a higher rate because this virus is novel. One would think the next round will not lead to nearly as many deaths even in the vulnerable communities. Its much, much less of a 'severe flu' for those under 30 and generally healthy.

Herd immunity may be even more important than once thought? Was shutting down schools a logical choice in the short run that wound up being more detrimental to everyone in the long run?
BiochemAg97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

"Exactly as deadly as the flu" is provably false. The worst flu season in the last several decades (2017-18) saw a total of around 60,000 deaths in the US. We have double that now despite 2 months of locking down. 1 in every 500 NYC inhabitants died from COVID. This is pretty clearly not the flu. I won't get into discussions regarding whether a full lockdown was necessary, but it is hard to take someone seriously who fails to acknowledge the very basic understanding that this is quite clearly much worse than the flu.
It depends if you look at total deaths or IFR. Yes, the total deaths are higher because it is a novel virus, no immunity, everyone susceptible. But the range of IFR for flu goes from .1-.2 for regular seasonal flu and as high as .8 for pandemic flus. Best guess right now is .3-.6 for COVID, placing its right in the middle of the flu range.
Capitol Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

"Exactly as deadly as the flu" is provably false. The worst flu season in the last several decades (2017-18) saw a total of around 60,000 deaths in the US. We have double that now despite 2 months of locking down. 1 in every 500 NYC inhabitants died from COVID. This is pretty clearly not the flu. I won't get into discussions regarding whether a full lockdown was necessary, but it is hard to take someone seriously who fails to acknowledge the very basic understanding that this is quite clearly much worse than the flu.
Don't use NY as an example. It's well documented that NY's policies led to the exaggerated number of deaths. Sending positive cases back into nursing homes as an example when they already knew better. Taking those numbers out shows a very different story in NY.

Here is my problem. Politics aside. When did it become the healthy population's responsibility to not spread the virus? And why? IS that even a burden we should be placing on those that are at extremely low risk of dying from Covid given the upheaval this is causing. 99.997% survival rate isn't a number that spells crisis to me. Again, its a "stomach" thing. Can we as a population stomach the idea that the more susceptible will die if we go on and fully reopen everything? Even if those numbers equal 200-500,000 deaths? It's not justifying deaths but instead looking at what the term "compassion" really should mean. The things going on right now to the least at risk (the vast majority of the population) are beyond "minor inconveniences" but have gravitated into major economic upheaval and issues that are effecting our lives in such a way that it is causing most of us to have to adjust our lives in ways that should never be asked of us. On top of that, many are having to diagnose their own sore throat or cough without any experience or medical training when the exact same presentation happens to them all the time throughout the year and they normally just take some allergy meds and they are fine. Now we think "oh no, I have a headache, better quarantine for 2 weeks and stop all life functions" for a damn cold or allergies. Again, that isn't a responsibility I feel we need to bear.

A lot of people talk about compassion and responsibility. I understand that. But as a parent of young children, my ultimate responsibility is to them and my spouse. If they cannot get the education in a real setting that they need or I cannot bring in a steady income for them now that we are in upheaval, what about those responsibilities and where is the compassion to all of those people? Many of which had just started businesses or new ventures in hopes of achieving the American dream only to be told by a government entity that now they cannot. Sports seems like a trivial issue to many, but what if that was your son or daughter whose dreams are to play at the next level but don't even know if their season will happen? What of the business owners, like Aggieland Outfitters or MaroonU or The Chicken or whatever, who depend on a full college football season to stay afloat? What of the employees who depend on paychecks who keep getting furloughed? Again, where is the compassion? I know many want to keep visiting their parents or grandparents and use that as a justification for all these policies and shutdowns. Yet have those people considered just not visiting and the responsibility they have to the rest of us and the people that they want to visit? I still think it's way to dangerous to visit weaker elderly even if you wear a mask. Yet many even on this site get mad at others b/c of the "risk" that they are perceiving not wearing a mask or not staying home by s stranger present to their ability to see their elderly loved ones. How about you don't visit Nanna and Pappa for a while and facetime them. We have with my parents. Or better yet, let that be the older person's choice to risk the virus. Am I right about any of this? Hell, I do not know at all. Maybe I wrong and I can accept that too. But I just wonder if we have needed to go this far. Nature has a course it runs. It's just one of those things. The injured gazelle either has to find their own way to survive or die. Harsh and yes, as humans we can in most cases overcome survival of the fittest and find solutions to be compassionate and keep the weaker of us alive. It's even our responsibility I'd argue. But keep in mind that when 60,000-80,000 can die of the regular flu yet we don't do anything to stop that, one could theoretically ask why we don't in those circumstances as well. /my rant.
tysker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Those benefiting the most from the lock downs, shut downs, social distancing, masks etc are the elderly and unhealthy, generally. The costs are being borne by the young, healthy, working class, taxpayers and shareholders.

Many of the costs have been pushed off into the future (debt, lower standard of living, less education, increase welfare needs, misallocated capital) and will not be realized for many years and decades. In some case many years after those who have benefited have died. There is an underlying issue that those made most well off by the current COVID response are often with the least amount of cost paid, past and future.
Skillet Shot
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Two things can be true at once:

COVID has a similar death rate as the flu.
COVID is more transmissible than the flu.

Therefore, there are more deaths due to COVID than the flu.
deadbq03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
So many people are singularly focused on Covid deaths, when another major reason governments care about pandemics is the burden of cases on the healthcare system. It's a major societal risk if your hospitals are overflowing.

If you get into a car accident and the ICU is full of old people who are dying of Covid, your survival is now at risk too.

True, we haven't seen this happen yet at a systemic level, but isolated hospitals have filled up throughout this. I'd argue it didn't happen widespread because measures were taken. And even if I'm dead wrong about that, the numbers showed we were on track for seeing that happen so the responsible choice from government leaders was to take action. And in other countries around the world, like Italy, they did have to take drastic action to increase hospital capacity. Leaders have to make the call... what is the likelihood that we'll see that here and do I want that on my watch.
culdeus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Keegan99 said:

It's a bit more than that. Look at his data and modeling. He's not cherry picking.
Not really sure about that. It seems mostly an unhinged rant. Is there somewhere he's actually written down his thought process and laid out the facts he's using to make this case?
eidetic78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I think the shut down response was what it was because the virus was an unknown. Whatever the final survival rate ends up being when all the data is tallied years from now, the initial survival rate at the time things were being originally shut down appeared to be much worse. I'm not sure second guessing decisions made 3+ months ago based on data today is fair, but obviously today's data should inform decisions moving forward.

The main issue with outbreak situations is that if you wait until you have enough data to know exactly what to do, the opportunity to do anything that can affect the outcome is long gone.

This whole scenario, as we've seen all over these boards, it's the perfect storm for fostering hysteria, conspiratorial conjecture, politicization, us vs them mentality, faction forming, etc.. because no one actually knows. Most are just writing opinions in all caps as fact because the actual facts aren't known.

I agree now that we know more, things shouldn't be completely shut down again, and they aren't as far as I know. I believe we're doing exactly what we should which is using local healthcare system capacities as the gauge for what actions may be needed.

I think the compassion and responsibility stuff works both ways. Whether the responsibility of the average person to public health is greater or less than the responsibility of the average person to any small business or other people's children's dreams is also a matter of opinion. I'm sure there will be plenty on both sides.

Making decisions that negatively affect other people's lives doesn't automatically signal a lack of compassion. Sometimes it's unavoidable. With the knowledge available at the time those decisions were originally made back in March, I can understand why things were done as they were.

Your final point about us not doing anything to stop the flu isn't true though. We spend millions of dollars and thousands of people's careers studying and finding ways to combat flu deaths. Through continued development of vaccines, antiviral research, campaigns trying to get better hygiene compliance, etc.. The flu death toll is what it is each year in spite of all those efforts. If we truly did nothing, it would be much worse.

I'm guess your point was that we obviously don't shelter in place every time flu infections spike. But that's simply because that virus has been with us for centuries and we're used to it, we expect it, and we've accounted for it.

In my opinion, if a new flu strain for which no immunity existed started moving through the population causing what appeared at the time to be 3-4%+ mortality on top of the typical seasonal flu and other respiratory diseases, similar measures would have been taken.
HotardAg07
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
My complaint broadly with what you're saying is that nobody is disagreeing with you that the effects of shutting down are terrible. However, there are many people who are taking their frustrations with the effects of shutdown to downplay the threat of the virus -- like you saying that 99.97% of people will survive from covid infections, which is not even remotely true. You have to really selectively cherry pick data to reach conclusions even remotely close to that. 0.58% of all people in Bergamo, Italy have died from coronavirus. ALL people, not just infected people.

The two beliefs do not need to be mutually exclusive. I do not want us to have to do a lockdown, I want kids back in school, I want to support as many businesses as I possibly can, but I also have a healthy respect for the virus. I can recognize that the virus is more deadly than the flu, especially for older populations. I do not hand waive 500,000 deaths.

But for me, those internalized concerns means wearing a mask, washing hands obsessively, keeping my distance from people where possible, and trying to be careful around my most vulnerable family members.

What I think is a shame are the people are so mad with the shutdown and the economic ramifications that they have militantly decided that they will NOT do anything to prevent the spread of the disease and that being safe is someone else's problem. Our vulnerable populations need to interact with people to live, whether it be caretakers or younger family members. I don't take their life lightly and I do not consider my 80+ year old grandmother expendable because she already lived past the age expectancy. She has many years left to live.

For example, it's made the news that a bar owner is protesting the closing of bars in Texas. He's saying that his bar plays a small part of the coronavirus spread but it's going to crush him financially and drive him to bankruptcy. I absolutely empathize and sympathize with his frustration. What I do not like is that he is so angry with the coronavirus hype he BANNED employees and patrons from wearing a mask in his store. Even if you question the efficacy of home made cloth masks in preventing the spread of covid, why would you BAN employees and patrons from making their own decisions on whether or not to wear them?

Every single day I come on this website, and people push experts and articles that downplay the threat of the virus and discredit experts and articles that give credit to the threat of the virus -- don't you see the cognitive dissonance and the confirmation bias at play? Shouldn't well educated, grounded people be able to review all information and make informed conclusions about the threat level and how to best manage that risk? If you're always rejecting the information that you don't like, does that reflect well on your critical thinking?
Complete Idiot
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I've appreciate your balanced view of the situation and attempts at fact based discussions. Hard to find these days, keep posting.
BusterAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

"Exactly as deadly as the flu" is provably false. The worst flu season in the last several decades (2017-18) saw a total of around 60,000 deaths in the US. We have double that now despite 2 months of locking down. 1 in every 500 NYC inhabitants died from with COVID. This is pretty clearly not the flu. I won't get into discussions regarding whether a full lockdown was necessary, but it is hard to take someone seriously who fails to acknowledge the very basic understanding that this is quite clearly much worse than the flu.
FIFY.

We will never know how many people died FROM COVID, because the CDC purposefully obfuscated that statistic.

The best that you can do is estimate the increase in people that died from upper-respiratory infections during a time period, and that number is much, much lower than 1 in 500.
JP_Losman
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
True. They distorted the scientific data needed to properly analyze this.
Economic incentives will do that
GAC06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Decries cherry picking of data, then immediately cherry picks data from Bergamo. Great job.
A. G. Pennypacker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I thought the most intriguing thing he said is that herd immunity occurs at around 15%. If he's right about that, it's huge. Some areas of the US have already reached this (New York City) and many other larger cities are probably close. Is this the main reason cases in NY have subsided?
A wealthy American industrialist looking to open a silver mine in the mountains of Peru.
tysker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

The two beliefs do not need to be mutually exclusive. I do not want us to have to do a lockdown, I want kids back in school, I want to support as many businesses as I possibly can, but I also have a healthy respect for the virus. I can recognize that the virus is more deadly than the flu, especially for older populations. I do not hand waive 500,000 deaths.
You're figure is a worldwide one. 600,000 Americans die every year from heart disease, 3 times more than will likely die this year from COVID. Another 100,000 will die from hospital-acquired infections. 70,000 per year die from opiods (which where prescribed by the same medical system we are trying to keep from getting 'overwhelmed'). So unless you were shouting at the rooftops about these issues, every year for the last decades or more, I would say you kind of are willing to waive away hundreds of thousands of deaths. COVID is just easier for you and I to manage because 'staying at home and do nothing' is the path of least effort and resistance.
agforlife97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

"Exactly as deadly as the flu" is provably false. The worst flu season in the last several decades (2017-18) saw a total of around 60,000 deaths in the US. We have double that now despite 2 months of locking down. 1 in every 500 NYC inhabitants died from COVID. This is pretty clearly not the flu. I won't get into discussions regarding whether a full lockdown was necessary, but it is hard to take someone seriously who fails to acknowledge the very basic understanding that this is quite clearly much worse than the flu.
He's arguing that the "excess death" data shows that it's not provably false and that we're looking at the wrong data, probably because of the vagaries of the way various countries code covid deaths, especially in older people.

He also talked about how herd immunity comes at 15%, and there's starting to be emerging evidence that this may be the case. That's about to be put to the test in NYC.

His main point about how we were wrong to listen to epidemiologists seems clearly true to me. Our policy makers have done massive, massive damage to the economy. Perhaps irreparable damage.
BusterAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
tysker said:

Quote:

Mathematically, COVID is about 3-4 weeks of death.
Back of the envelope arithmetic suggests this would still lead to about 200,000 deaths (given approx 2.8 million US annual) which is what many of us were 'guessing' and what 'felt like the ultimate number would be' back in March.

I'd say that is much more than a 'severe flu' especially for those over 65 and those in LTC facilities. However those deaths are impacted at a higher rate because this virus is novel. One would think the next round will not lead to nearly as many deaths even in the vulnerable communities. Its much, much less of a 'severe flu' for those under 30 and generally healthy.

Herd immunity may be even more important than once thought? Was shutting down schools a logical choice in the short run that wound up being more detrimental to everyone in the long run?
1) I still don't believe in the death counts. We need more study to see how many people died FROM Covid as opposed to dying WITH COVID. The total death numbers could be inflated by a factor of 2x to 3x for all we know, especially since so many of the people that died WITH COVID were already really vulnerable.

2) Even if we get to a number where the the deaths FROM COVID approach 200,000, it is pretty much in line with the Spainish Flu of 1958. Total US population 1958 of about 174M compared to 2020 of 330M. So 1.9 x US death counts of 70k to 120k is a range of between 133k and 228k. So, squarely in line with this example.
H.E. Pennypacker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
culdeus said:

The net impact that results in this being a severe flu, is driven by the fact that the >65years overweight the death rate. That's cherry picking of the the highest order.

That's what this guy's rant boiled down to.

If you want to hospice >65 year old people have at it. Otherwise what you want us to do?

Sweeden told their olds to go away. We don't seem to have the stomach for that.


The thing is, for a myriad of reasons, In my opinion, our Above 65 population here in the USA holds undue power/sway economically and politically. For as much as people say we don't "value" our elders here, we might be more beholden to them than other cultures with more "normal" generational balances of power. It may be true that younger American generations don't "value/respect" them, but if so, they've found or kept influence/power for themselves later into life than previous generations. Just something I've been theorizing based on our presidential candidates the last decade.

Edited to clarify, before anyone says otherwise, that I don't support throwing our elders into the proverbial fire.
Complete Idiot
How long do you want to ignore this user?
aglaes said:

I thought the most intriguing thing he said is that herd immunity occurs at around 15%. If he's right about that, it's huge. Some areas of the US have already reached this (New York City) and many other larger cities are probably close. Is this the main reason cases in NY have subsided?
Main reason, not sure. Antibody testing in NYC indicated around 20% had antibodies. As noted above, or maybe it was a different thread, those antibodies may be coronavirus generic type antibodies and not just due to having had Covid 19 - but either way, antibodies that may help ward off Covid 19 or reduce it's impact. And then you may have a large group that has some type of natural immunity, I get confused between the antibodies and the T-cell type response that can also help an individual. Cases, hospitalizations, and deaths way down in NYC and it seems to me places with outbreaks tend to have a roughly 4-8 week time frame where things are "bad" and then it drops back down - not to zero, but not impactful. Having said that, NYC has been on some type of "lockdown" since March, Phase 1 of their reopening began June 8th and Phase 2 June 22nd, so it's worth watching if their cases/hospitalization/death rates change as a result. Not yet, based on what I looked at yesterday.
tysker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

Every single day I come on this website, and people push experts and articles that downplay the threat of the virus and discredit experts and articles that give credit to the threat of the virus -- don't you see the cognitive dissonance and the confirmation bias at play? Shouldn't well educated, grounded people be able to review all information and make informed conclusions about the threat level and how to best manage that risk? If you're always rejecting the information that you don't like, does that reflect well on your critical thinking?
The only way for this to be enacted would be to open up and let businesses, families, institutions and associations make their own decisions based on facts and risk assessment. Mandated lock downs and shut downs allow only ONE entity (i.e. the government) to dictate policy based on ONE conclusion and threat level, not the multitude of individuals and organizations.
tysker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
BusterAg said:

tysker said:

Quote:

Mathematically, COVID is about 3-4 weeks of death.
Back of the envelope arithmetic suggests this would still lead to about 200,000 deaths (given approx 2.8 million US annual) which is what many of us were 'guessing' and what 'felt like the ultimate number would be' back in March.

I'd say that is much more than a 'severe flu' especially for those over 65 and those in LTC facilities. However those deaths are impacted at a higher rate because this virus is novel. One would think the next round will not lead to nearly as many deaths even in the vulnerable communities. Its much, much less of a 'severe flu' for those under 30 and generally healthy.

Herd immunity may be even more important than once thought? Was shutting down schools a logical choice in the short run that wound up being more detrimental to everyone in the long run?
1) I still don't believe in the death counts. We need more study to see how many people died FROM Covid as opposed to dying WITH COVID. The total death numbers could be inflated by a factor of 2x to 3x for all we know, especially since so many of the people that died WITH COVID were already really vulnerable.

2) Even if we get to a number where the the deaths FROM COVID approach 200,000, it is pretty much in line with the Spainish Flu of 1958. Total US population 1958 of about 174M compared to 2020 of 330M. So 1.9 x US death counts of 70k to 120k is a range of between 133k and 228k. So, squarely in line with this example.
I tend to agree but I think it's a matter of semantics. What's the typical cause of death for someone in hospice for terminal cancer who contracts the flu? Unless you're a medical policy wonk or insurance company, you normally don't care. There's going to be a large margin for error and there is obvious opacity in the data collection process, rightfully or not. Unfortunately its that opacity that allows people far removed to make general assumptions that are generally accurate but can be used to draw inaccurate conclusions.
eidetic78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Every flu statistic you've ever seen is also an estimate.

There's no malice or purposeful obfuscation in the process used to estimate disease burdens.

There are always caveats because the information itself is imperfect. That just has to be understood to be an intelligent consumer of the data.
agforlife97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
One other point that Levitt makes on his twitter is that mass testing in some sense actually causes this pandemic. We don't do mass testing of flu every year (including lightly symptomatic or asymptomatic people), but if we did we might consider that we have a flu pandemic every single year.

More broadly, all that really matters are the number of people that are sick enough to be hospitalized. There's really no reason for lightly symptomatic or asymptomatic people to get tested.
BusterAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
tysker said:

BusterAg said:

tysker said:

Quote:

Mathematically, COVID is about 3-4 weeks of death.
Back of the envelope arithmetic suggests this would still lead to about 200,000 deaths (given approx 2.8 million US annual) which is what many of us were 'guessing' and what 'felt like the ultimate number would be' back in March.

I'd say that is much more than a 'severe flu' especially for those over 65 and those in LTC facilities. However those deaths are impacted at a higher rate because this virus is novel. One would think the next round will not lead to nearly as many deaths even in the vulnerable communities. Its much, much less of a 'severe flu' for those under 30 and generally healthy.

Herd immunity may be even more important than once thought? Was shutting down schools a logical choice in the short run that wound up being more detrimental to everyone in the long run?
1) I still don't believe in the death counts. We need more study to see how many people died FROM Covid as opposed to dying WITH COVID. The total death numbers could be inflated by a factor of 2x to 3x for all we know, especially since so many of the people that died WITH COVID were already really vulnerable.

2) Even if we get to a number where the the deaths FROM COVID approach 200,000, it is pretty much in line with the Spainish Flu of 1958. Total US population 1958 of about 174M compared to 2020 of 330M. So 1.9 x US death counts of 70k to 120k is a range of between 133k and 228k. So, squarely in line with this example.
I tend to agree but I think it's a matter of semantics. What's the typical cause of death for someone in hospice for terminal cancer who contracts the flu? Unless you're a medical policy wonk or insurance company, you normally don't care. There's going to be a large margin for error and there is obvious opacity in the data collection process, rightfully or not. Unfortunately its that opacity that allows people far removed to make general assumptions that are generally accurate but can be used to draw inaccurate conclusions.
It's not semantics. It matters for policy decisions, and saying "well, it's tough to look at" is just freaking lazy. That is Levitt's main complaint.

If you are a terminal pancreatic cancer patient, and you contact COVID, and die while on a vent because you can't breath, that is very different than if you die because of sever jaundice.

So, playbook:
1) Health officials setting up a way to count deaths that is obviously skewed in order to facilitate policies that will avoid a pandemic (Ok, manipulative but rational)
2) Passing a bunch of economic killing measure to avoid said pandemic (again, caution is sometimes the best policy, whatever)
3) Things slow down quickly, no exponential growth. What happened?
4) Experts sticking their fingers in their ears when it comes to legitimate analysis of the impact of the skew of #1 to see why things are not as bad as we thought (Lazy, inexcusable, and driven by self-preservation and politics)

The costs of not doing the analysis in #4 very, very carefully at this point are astronomical. Now that COVID is obviously not spreading exponentially, this should be the #1 most important economic activity to be doing right now.
BusterAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
eidetic78 said:

Every flu statistic you've ever seen is also an estimate.

There's no malice or purposeful obfuscation in the process used to estimate disease burdens.

Frankly, I don't believe you.

There are always caveats because the information itself is imperfect. That just has to be understood to be an intelligent consumer of the data.

Two remedies:
1) get better information
2) Analyze the freaking data!!!! This is supposed to be the era of Big Data! All of the richest companies in the world are rich specifically because they can deal with problems like this. We can do better analysis, we just don't want to.

Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.