Any Perspectives from other Countries?

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3:19p, 7/14/20
AG
Curious how many people here have had first hand experiences living in other countries recently and their attitude towards this all.

Seems like all this is really accomplishing here in the US the further we get into this is causing more and more divide. From my perspective it seems like even people that didn't strongly dislike each other before this are starting to. The lines in the sand are only getting more set and people really seem to downright hate a lot of people the further we get into this. Schools get closed and sport leagues cancel, it's really going to get ugly IMO.

Just wondering if that's a uniquely American thing these days or if other country's citizenry is at each other's throats like we seem to be here.
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cone
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In reply to Player To Be Named Later • 8:12p, 7/14/20
AG
so what do you think really ugly is going to look like?
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Drip99
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8:45p, 7/14/20
AG
This country has been on this path long before the virus hit. We are treating It like anything else....pick a side and battle and the next battle now that the "mask war" is somewhat festering will be the school fight. Pick a side and head to Twitter.
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Player To Be Named Later
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In reply to Drip99 • 9:16p, 7/14/20
AG
Yep. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram.... all driving the divide.
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jenn96
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10:53p, 7/14/20
AG
We were well on the way before COVID but being election year has ramped up the ugly on both sides because there is so little trust in any public institutions on either side.

Add in public health officials making claims that are either contradictory (masks do nothing don't wear them! Now masks are critical!) or asinine (protesting against shutdowns will increase virus spread and is immoral but protesting racism somehow won't because it's moral, as though a virus has moral agency).

Then add in the media who are getting more worthless at anything that resembles journalism and basically regurgitate what they follow on Twitter, which is our society's mental diarrhea.

It's not good.
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Complete Idiot
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11:01p, 7/14/20
Vietnam - 97 million people, 370 cases, 0 deaths

Thats a different perspective
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Beat40
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In reply to Player To Be Named Later • 11:02p, 7/14/20
Player To Be Named Later said:
Curious how many people here have had first hand experiences living in other countries recently and their attitude towards this all.

Seems like all this is really accomplishing here in the US the further we get into this is causing more and more divide. From my perspective it seems like even people that didn't strongly dislike each other before this are starting to. The lines in the sand are only getting more set and people really seem to downright hate a lot of people the further we get into this. Schools get closed and sport leagues cancel, it's really going to get ugly IMO.

Just wondering if that's a uniquely American thing these days or if other country's citizenry is at each other's throats like we seem to be here.
I don't have first hand experience living in another country, but I suspect most western countries are really pretty similar. Maybe they don't place as much emphasis on individual freedoms as that's something that is more built into the DNA of America, but I think there are lots citizenry in other western countries who are at each other's throats. I think humans are basically the same in every country and compassion decreases year after year.

I agree with a lot of what you've said on this topic. Think there is a deep divide and COVID has brought a lot more out in people.
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bigtruckguy3500
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11:05p, 7/14/20
Was in Japan for a while. I wasn't hit in a particularly hard hit area, but the number of locals wearing masks went from about 10-15% to 95%, at least in public. They also did a lot of the other things that we have done here, put up markers while standing in line, clear plastic separators at retail places. Automatic hand sanitizer dispensers were at the entrances to most stores, smaller places had spray bottles with hand sanitizer put out. Restaurants that remained open closed off lots of seating to promote distancing.

But there was no real shut down. A few businesses closed, or altered operations. But again, was in a part that wasn't particularly hard hit, so might explain the lack of a shutdown. I also limited my time in town down to the bare minimum.
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Smokedraw01
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11:09p, 7/14/20
The U.S. is a country with one of the lowest social trust scores. We just don't like each other for some reason and it's disturbing. For some reason, we are an angry nation that can't let our better angels fly unless we're in a state of emergency and COVID hasn't even allowed for that.

Quote:
Long-run data from the US, where the General Social Survey (GSS) has been gathering information about trust attitudes since 1972, suggests that people trust each other less today than 40 years ago. This decline in interpersonal trust in the US has been coupled with a long-run reduction in public trust in government according to estimates compiled by the Pew Research Center since 1958, today trust in the government in the US is at historically low levels.


[url] https://ourworldindata.org/trust[/url]
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H.E. Pennypacker
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In reply to jenn96 • 11:53p, 7/14/20
AG
jenn96 said:
We were well on the way before COVID but being election year has ramped up the ugly on both sides because there is so little trust in any public institutions on either side.

Add in public health officials making claims that are either contradictory (masks do nothing don't wear them! Now masks are critical!) or asinine (protesting against shutdowns will increase virus spread and is immoral but protesting racism somehow won't because it's moral, as though a virus has moral agency).

Then add in the media who are getting more worthless at anything that resembles journalism and basically regurgitate what they follow on Twitter, which is our society's mental diarrhea.

It's not good.


Well, in defense of the "worthless" media regurgitating the Twitter "mental diarrhea," much of it is from the President, so it's kind of their job.
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bovinevirus12
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In reply to Complete Idiot • 7:18a, 7/15/20
Complete Idiot said:
Vietnam - 97 million people, 370 cases, 0 deaths

Thats a different perspective


Curious to know how many tests they have done...
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jenn96
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In reply to H.E. Pennypacker • 7:19a, 7/15/20
AG
H.E. Pennypacker said:
jenn96 said:
We were well on the way before COVID but being election year has ramped up the ugly on both sides because there is so little trust in any public institutions on either side.

Add in public health officials making claims that are either contradictory (masks do nothing don't wear them! Now masks are critical!) or asinine (protesting against shutdowns will increase virus spread and is immoral but protesting racism somehow won't because it's moral, as though a virus has moral agency).

Then add in the media who are getting more worthless at anything that resembles journalism and basically regurgitate what they follow on Twitter, which is our society's mental diarrhea.

It's not good.


Well, in defense of the "worthless" media regurgitating the Twitter "mental diarrhea," much of it is from the President, so it's kind of their job.

Your post being exhibit A of what I'm talking about. Trump's messaging of COVID has been extremely bad and his Twitter account is an national embarrassment but the idea that he is the reason for horrible fear driven analysis with minimal fact checking and an almost total inability to do any type of data parsing and comparison is so partisan that it just proves up the OPs point.

As bad as Trump is, he's not the reason we have crumbling trust in public institutions, abdication of leadership across parties and a media that has relegated itself to fear-mongeribg and retweets. He's a symptom of it all. And It will get worse after him.
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Cepe
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8:05a, 7/15/20
AG
Take it to the politics board. . . .

I'm curious too about first hand experiences of Ags in other countries, not one side or the other discussing Trump
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Pumpkinhead
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8:11a, 7/15/20
AG
Live in Panama. Latin America getting hit hard. Been in a strict quarantine lockdown for four months now, but the spread got out of control in mid-June and now the hospitals are overrun. There are no available ICU beds any more, it has been highly recommended to 'not get real sick requiring ICU, because you won't get one'.

The economy here is getting thrashed but the COVID is overwhelming them also so rock-and-a-hard place situation I guess. Extremely frustrating and not being able to go out or leave your neighborhood for months and months wears you down, but I don't know what the right answer here is. Clearly this COVID is a legit threat that is causing real serious problems for Panama's healthcare system, Knowing if I get sick there may very well be no ventilator available for me Or anyone else in my family gives one pause, but at the same time are they going to have to essentially lock down their population until when? 2021? I don't know what to think anymore.

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In reply to Pumpkinhead • 8:17a, 7/15/20
AG
Sounds like a truly awful situation. Curious how folks are acting with it all...... everyone fighting and arguing with each other about things like masks, etc like here in the States?
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Drip99
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In reply to bovinevirus12 • 8:21a, 7/15/20
AG
bovinevirus12 said:
Complete Idiot said:
Vietnam - 97 million people, 370 cases, 0 deaths

Thats a different perspective


Curious to know how many tests they have done...
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/29/asia/coronavirus-vietnam-intl-hnk/index.html

Sounds like they took it seriously from the start, did an amazing job contact tracing and had buy in from the population. I wonder if they argue with each other and their gov about every mandate or suggested physician advice?
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Complete Idiot
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In reply to Drip99 • 8:27a, 7/15/20
JesusQuintana said:
bovinevirus12 said:
Complete Idiot said:
Vietnam - 97 million people, 370 cases, 0 deaths

Thats a different perspective


Curious to know how many tests they have done...
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/29/asia/coronavirus-vietnam-intl-hnk/index.html

Sounds like they took it seriously from the start, did an amazing job contact tracing and had buy in from the population. I wonder if they argue with each other and their gov about every mandate or suggested physician advice?
And while the rate of growth has slowed, they've still had positive gdp growth in first half of 2020. If we judge by impact to public health and economy to date, seems like they've done better than Sweden. If no vaccine or treatment ever materializes, they'll eventually have to face the virus. If treatments are better now than three months ago, and if a vaccine is ready end of year, they've done themselves a favor through their handling of this event.
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Thomas Ford 91
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9:29a, 7/15/20
AG
Quote:
And while the rate of growth has slowed, they've still had positive gdp growth in first half of 2020. If we judge by impact to public health and economy to date, seems like they've done better than Sweden. If no vaccine or treatment ever materializes, they'll eventually have to face the virus. If treatments are better now than three months ago, and if a vaccine is ready end of year, they've done themselves a favor through their handling of this event.
Sweden is not a good measure, because most everybody has done better than Sweden.

Among countries with populations above 10 million (90), Sweden is...
  • 5th in deaths per million (549)
  • 5th in total cases per million population (7,524)
  • 18th in total deaths (5,545)

They need to get to at least 65% infected to reach their goal of "herd immunity". By most estimates, they've hit 4%-7% so far.
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GAC06
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In reply to Thomas Ford 91 • 9:35a, 7/15/20
AG
What do you think is happening there?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/
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deadbq03
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9:40a, 7/15/20
AG
I think the UK is polarized on this as well. I've seen plenty of arguments in the comments sections of British media.

I'm probably in the minority, but think two-party systems are toxic and I wish we had something different. You have an either-or, us-them, all-nothing choice every election. Politicians are rewarded more for speaking with hyperbole to excite their base than to try and reach across the aisle and compromise.

In countries with a multi-party system they have to compromise or literally nothing will get done (and that's good too, sometimes).
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Player To Be Named Later
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In reply to deadbq03 • 9:45a, 7/15/20
AG
Agree about the UK. I have a friend through a family ancestry page that lives in UK. They seem to argue quite a bit about this stuff too, but it seems mostly about businesses being open, etc. I haven't seen him mentioning arguments over masks.
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lazuras_dc
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9:45a, 7/15/20
AG
Why do you suppose its hit so hard? Less healthcare infrastructure? Less over all health of the citizens? Sounds like they are taking all the lockdown measures we are/other european countries are.
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Gordo14
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In reply to GAC06 • 9:52a, 7/15/20
GAC06 said:
What do you think is happening there?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/


That can be many other things than herd immunity. There are a lot of variables in transmission rates. But go ahead and explain Brazil if everything can be summed up in 1 country.
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H.E. Pennypacker
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In reply to jenn96 • 9:56a, 7/15/20
AG
jenn96 said:
H.E. Pennypacker said:
jenn96 said:
We were well on the way before COVID but being election year has ramped up the ugly on both sides because there is so little trust in any public institutions on either side.

Add in public health officials making claims that are either contradictory (masks do nothing don't wear them! Now masks are critical!) or asinine (protesting against shutdowns will increase virus spread and is immoral but protesting racism somehow won't because it's moral, as though a virus has moral agency).

Then add in the media who are getting more worthless at anything that resembles journalism and basically regurgitate what they follow on Twitter, which is our society's mental diarrhea.

It's not good.


Well, in defense of the "worthless" media regurgitating the Twitter "mental diarrhea," much of it is from the President, so it's kind of their job.

Your post being exhibit A of what I'm talking about. Trump's messaging of COVID has been extremely bad and his Twitter account is an national embarrassment but the idea that he is the reason for horrible fear driven analysis with minimal fact checking and an almost total inability to do any type of data parsing and comparison is so partisan that it just proves up the OPs point.

As bad as Trump is, he's not the reason we have crumbling trust in public institutions, abdication of leadership across parties and a media that has relegated itself to fear-mongeribg and retweets. He's a symptom of it all. And It will get worse after him.


I largely agree with you. But if Trump is a symptom of a larger illness, I think you have to ask when and where the illness started, and if one segment of society seems "more sick" than others. People are scapegoating the media entirely too much for society's collective failures (ie our own individual and personal failures) IMO.
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GAC06
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In reply to Gordo14 • 10:02a, 7/15/20
AG
Gordo14 said:
GAC06 said:
What do you think is happening there?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/


That can be many other things than herd immunity. There are a lot of variables in transmission rates. But go ahead and explain Brazil if everything can be summed up in 1 country.


So what do you think is happening?

Brazil is at 350 deaths per million.

Sweden is at 550 deaths per million.
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Old RV Ag
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In reply to GAC06 • 10:22a, 7/15/20
AG
GAC06 said:
Gordo14 said:
GAC06 said:
What do you think is happening there?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/


That can be many other things than herd immunity. There are a lot of variables in transmission rates. But go ahead and explain Brazil if everything can be summed up in 1 country.


So what do you think is happening?

Brazil is at 350 deaths per million.

Sweden is at 550 deaths per million.
Brazil's number are definitely very low. People in favelas aren't even official people in many cases. The ultra poor many times don't even exist officially, have never seen a doctor, and when they die are just buried by family friends without a death certificate. And this is first hand info as I have a relative who is Brazilian and a federal prosecutor in Rio.

Do you really want to debate Sweden's organization and documentation capabilities with those of Brazil?
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GAC06
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In reply to Old RV Ag • 10:28a, 7/15/20
AG
I don't doubt any of that. Gordo brought up Brazil, and I'm not sure what point he was trying to make. I agree that comparing countries based on the worldometer data is mostly useless since there isn't one standard of reporting or accuracy.

Mainly I wanted to address Tom Ford's assertion that 65% of a population needs to be infected to reach herd immunity and that only 5% in Sweden had been infected. Lots of scientists are questioning the veracity of that, and examples like Sweden, Italy, Spain, NYC, and others seem to suggest that something is causing the virus to burn out well before that number.
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Old RV Ag
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In reply to GAC06 • 10:32a, 7/15/20
AG
GAC06 said:
I don't doubt any of that. Gordo brought up Brazil, and I'm not sure what point he was trying to make. I agree that comparing countries based on the worldometer data is mostly useless since there isn't one standard or reporting or accuracy.

Mainly I wanted to address Tom Ford's assertion that 65% of a population needs to be infected to reach herd immunity and that only 5% in Sweden had been infected. Lots of scientists are questioning the veracity of that, and examples like Sweden, Italy, Spain, NYC, and others seem to suggest that something is causing the virus to burn out well before that number.
Ah, got it. I agree with your take above.
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HotardAg07
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In reply to bigtruckguy3500 • 10:43a, 7/15/20
AG
bigtruckguy3500 said:
Was in Japan for a while. I wasn't hit in a particularly hard hit area, but the number of locals wearing masks went from about 10-15% to 95%, at least in public. They also did a lot of the other things that we have done here, put up markers while standing in line, clear plastic separators at retail places. Automatic hand sanitizer dispensers were at the entrances to most stores, smaller places had spray bottles with hand sanitizer put out. Restaurants that remained open closed off lots of seating to promote distancing.

But there was no real shut down. A few businesses closed, or altered operations. But again, was in a part that wasn't particularly hard hit, so might explain the lack of a shutdown. I also limited my time in town down to the bare minimum.
I work in a Japanese company and can echo this is what I hear from my Japanese colleagues. For them, avoiding pandemics/viruses is a common struggle, since they live in such a densely populated society. The mask wearing, hand washing, etc. is baked into the culture moreso. Also, they have a more collectivist mindset, rather than individualistic. It's easier for a greater proportion of the population to make personal sacrifices to help other people than it is here, frankly. But hey, during this pandemic it has worked for them. My company never had to close or tell people to work from home, other than those office types who live in Tokyo and rely on public transportation.
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