Cornell Research Says in person school more safe than online?

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10:42a, 8/12/20
AG
Interesting article. Basic Premise is that in-person university is safer because schools have more control over the environment. On the flip side, students will come back into town regardless and schools have less control if it's all online resulting in higher cases if school is all online.

Article -> https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/07/01/cornell-researchers-say-person-semester-university-safer-online-one
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BadMoonRisin
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11:30a, 8/12/20
AG
THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER!
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texink
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1:02p, 8/12/20
AG
Did you read the article?
In-person education is assumed to have lower rates of infection, assuming that aggressive regulations and testing regimen are followed. Cornell students must test negative before returning to campus, they must complete a daily check-in of symptoms or risk being locked out of facilities, and tests will be completed regularly - twice per week for students living on-campus!

A&M has contracted for 15,000 tests per month systemwide, over a 150,000 student population. So there's capacity to only test 10% of students each month - we're likely to see this pandemic end before every student is even tested by the university. A&M won't even be providing masks to students - they must bring their own - nor remove students from buildings who refuse to wear them, let alone put in place as serious of a surveillance testing program as Cornell has. Students must sign a form indicating that they won't engage in risky behaviors. That's it.

In-person education is all well and good, but the assumption that every university will be as proactive as Cornell is a bad one.
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plain_o_llama
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1:08p, 8/12/20
Anyone heard of planned seroprevalence studies in University populations? If you were going to do one at A&M you would be collecting your baseline next week as students arrive.
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88planoAg
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In reply to texink • 1:12p, 8/12/20
AG
Nate09 said:
A&M won't even be providing masks to students - they must bring their own - nor remove students from buildings who refuse to wear them,
Can students or employees be directed to vacate university property by a supervisor if they refuse to wear a face covering?

Yes, unless they have received an exemption (described above) or the area or position has been granted a waiver from the face coverings policy. The agreement to come back to campus includes a requirement to follow all safety regulations. If individuals are not wearing a face covering in a public space, the first response should be a collegial reminder and an offer of a clean face covering, if one is available. If the individual refuses to wear a face covering, a supervisor (for students this could be a faculty member or a staff member overseeing the area) may direct the individual to leave the public space. For example, a faculty member could direct a student to attend a class remotely rather than in person. If the individual refuses to wear a face covering or leave the space, this should be reported to Student Affairs (students), Human Resources (staff) or Dean of Faculties (faculty) and dealt with using established disciplinary mechanisms.
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texink
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In reply to 88planoAg • 2:29p, 8/12/20
AG
88planoAg said:
Nate09 said:
A&M won't even be providing masks to students - they must bring their own - nor remove students from buildings who refuse to wear them,
Can students or employees be directed to vacate university property by a supervisor if they refuse to wear a face covering?

Yes, unless they have received an exemption (described above) or the area or position has been granted a waiver from the face coverings policy. The agreement to come back to campus includes a requirement to follow all safety regulations. If individuals are not wearing a face covering in a public space, the first response should be a collegial reminder and an offer of a clean face covering, if one is available. If the individual refuses to wear a face covering, a supervisor (for students this could be a faculty member or a staff member overseeing the area) may direct the individual to leave the public space. For example, a faculty member could direct a student to attend a class remotely rather than in person. If the individual refuses to wear a face covering or leave the space, this should be reported to Student Affairs (students), Human Resources (staff) or Dean of Faculties (faculty) and dealt with using established disciplinary mechanisms.
The provost clarified that with KBTX, contradicting the guidance on A&M's own website:

How will Texas A&M enforce the mask policy?
"Indoors, for instance in a classroom, if you are not wearing a face covering and you don't have an exemption, the faculty member will ask you to put one on or ask you to leave the class. If the student refuses, we are not going to have faculty throwing students out. They will just take the student's name, and they will give that name to student affairs. Then there will be a student conduct. We're currently working on exactly what the sanctions will be. The first one will be education about why did we ask, why do we think it's the right thing for face coverings to keep our community safe, and from there it will ratchet up. That will be the same way we'll try to deal with faculty, staff, and visitors. With students, since everything can be done remotely, if a student really doesn't want [to wear a mask], if it really is against their beliefs, they don't have to come to class. They can still get an education."

https://www.kbtx.com/2020/07/03/texas-am-provost-answers-faq-about-students-return-to-campus/
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88planoAg
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2:37p, 8/12/20
AG
You would rather security haul them out of the building?
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AggieBiker
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In reply to texink • 4:53p, 8/12/20
AG
I think you are misinterpreting what he is saying. I think he means we won't have faculty physically throwing people out of class. That is not a contradiction.
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texink
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In reply to AggieBiker • 5:20p, 8/12/20
AG
AggieBiker said:
I think you are misinterpreting what he is saying. I think he means we won't have faculty physically throwing people out of class. That is not a contradiction.
I'll grant that it might not be a firm contradiction as the TAMU site uses squirrelly language (probably intentionally) on exactly what happens to students who do not comply. But my original point that students will be allowed to remain in A&M facilities while not wearing masks, putting other students at risk, is 100% true.
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AggieBiker
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In reply to texink • 8:36p, 8/13/20
AG
Nate09 said:
AggieBiker said:
I think you are misinterpreting what he is saying. I think he means we won't have faculty physically throwing people out of class. That is not a contradiction.
I'll grant that it might not be a firm contradiction as the TAMU site uses squirrelly language (probably intentionally) on exactly what happens to students who do not comply. But my original point that students will be allowed to remain in A&M facilities while not wearing masks, putting other students at risk, is 100% true.
Are you saying you think they will be allowed to remain as long as they desire? Or do you think only until the campus cops or someone else in authority makes them leave? Those are two grossly different interpretations. Which is your interpretation?
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texink
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In reply to AggieBiker • 10:44p, 8/13/20
AG
AggieBiker said:
Nate09 said:
AggieBiker said:
I think you are misinterpreting what he is saying. I think he means we won't have faculty physically throwing people out of class. That is not a contradiction.
I'll grant that it might not be a firm contradiction as the TAMU site uses squirrelly language (probably intentionally) on exactly what happens to students who do not comply. But my original point that students will be allowed to remain in A&M facilities while not wearing masks, putting other students at risk, is 100% true.
Are you saying you think they will be allowed to remain as long as they desire? Or do you think only until the campus cops or someone else in authority makes them leave? Those are two grossly different interpretations. Which is your interpretation?


Seriously? It's pretty clear that no one will be forcibly removing students from A&M premises for not wearing a mask and it will instead go through disciplinary means, which will likely mean days of bureaucracy, at best.
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GAC06
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In reply to texink • 10:50p, 8/13/20
AG
You actually want people forcibly removed or arrested over a mask?

A person thinks the situation is so dangerous it should be mandatory to not be in close proximity to someone without a mask. But that person also wants police/security to overpower and physically remove a maskless person?
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88planoAg
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10:53p, 8/13/20
AG
I just don't think this is going to be a huge problem with tens of students disregarding wearing masks.
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AggieBiker
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In reply to texink • 6:18a, 8/14/20
AG
Nate09 said:
AggieBiker said:
Nate09 said:
AggieBiker said:
I think you are misinterpreting what he is saying. I think he means we won't have faculty physically throwing people out of class. That is not a contradiction.
I'll grant that it might not be a firm contradiction as the TAMU site uses squirrelly language (probably intentionally) on exactly what happens to students who do not comply. But my original point that students will be allowed to remain in A&M facilities while not wearing masks, putting other students at risk, is 100% true.
Are you saying you think they will be allowed to remain as long as they desire? Or do you think only until the campus cops or someone else in authority makes them leave? Those are two grossly different interpretations. Which is your interpretation?


Seriously? It's pretty clear that no one will be forcibly removing students from A&M premises for not wearing a mask and it will instead go through disciplinary means, which will likely mean days of bureaucracy, at best.
I'm not sure there will be a need to forcibly remove any student. I think voluntary compliance, especially in classrooms, labs, learning areas, etc., will be really high. I also think most people will comply if asked by a professor or fellow students.

The stories we have seen from around the nation of an individual defying the restriction when everyone else is complying and then causing a confrontation are really very few when you consider how many people are actually in such a situation everyday. And yes, depending on where you live, there are many people that don't put on a mask or wear it "properly" in a grocery or hardware store but I think A&M students and learning environments are quite different from those types. I believe there will be plenty of parties and students behaving in ways medical people say we shouldn't, but I think they will comply on campus and no one will need to be forcibly removed. Maybe you see it differently. We'll both know it if it happens but I'm not worried about it happening at all.
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texink
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In reply to AggieBiker • 12:14p, 8/14/20
AG
AggieBiker said:
Nate09 said:
AggieBiker said:
Nate09 said:
AggieBiker said:
I think you are misinterpreting what he is saying. I think he means we won't have faculty physically throwing people out of class. That is not a contradiction.
I'll grant that it might not be a firm contradiction as the TAMU site uses squirrelly language (probably intentionally) on exactly what happens to students who do not comply. But my original point that students will be allowed to remain in A&M facilities while not wearing masks, putting other students at risk, is 100% true.
Are you saying you think they will be allowed to remain as long as they desire? Or do you think only until the campus cops or someone else in authority makes them leave? Those are two grossly different interpretations. Which is your interpretation?


Seriously? It's pretty clear that no one will be forcibly removing students from A&M premises for not wearing a mask and it will instead go through disciplinary means, which will likely mean days of bureaucracy, at best.
I'm not sure there will be a need to forcibly remove any student. I think voluntary compliance, especially in classrooms, labs, learning areas, etc., will be really high. I also think most people will comply if asked by a professor or fellow students.

The stories we have seen from around the nation of an individual defying the restriction when everyone else is complying and then causing a confrontation are really very few when you consider how many people are actually in such a situation everyday. And yes, depending on where you live, there are many people that don't put on a mask or wear it "properly" in a grocery or hardware store but I think A&M students and learning environments are quite different from those types. I believe there will be plenty of parties and students behaving in ways medical people say we shouldn't, but I think they will comply on campus and no one will need to be forcibly removed. Maybe you see it differently. We'll both know it if it happens but I'm not worried about it happening at all.
I hope you're right, but there were plenty of students there in my day that lacked common sense and were itching for a fight to pick and a hill to die on. I hope it's not an issue, but my original point is that A&M is unwilling to institute the type of draconian measures that are called for in order for in-person instruction to be lower risk than online. They individually may seem immaterial, I wouldn't doubt they add up to a different risk profile for students at A&M than at Cornell and make this risk study inapplicable to A&M's in-person instruction plans.

To the other poster that asked if students should be forcibly removed: I'm on the fence about it, but wouldn't be opposed. I'm not really concerned if someone's feelings get hurt about being removed from the building.
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