Warning, long post

From docs on here, or others with their plans, what do you think about our situation for Christmas. We are already putting our thanksgiving plans on hold. Our usual plan would have been grandmother, my parents, two sets of aunts and uncles, 4 cousins plus one spouse, my sister and her husband, and myself my wife and our daughter. That's 16 people.

Grandmother 89- currently in hospital since yesterday positive but doing much better than expected after going in with low 80s O2. Had remdesivir and convalescent plasma already and nurse said her levels are great right now and that they never thought it possible she'd be doing this well with low functioning kidneys. Said she may even be able to go home in next few days. Again no sure thing and I am still prepared for the worst but we will go at this like she's going to make it and be home.

Myself 33, my wife 27, daughter 2. I go to my office every day and at most see 7 other people, usually 4 or less in an office built to hold 30. I stay in my closed office the whole time. My wife still goes to the store and masks up, my daughter to parents day out twice a week.

My parents, 63 and 62. Dad still goes to his office daily though will be quarantining next 2 weeks because he was recently around my grandmother. Mom stays home but also quarantine for being around her now infected mom.

Sister and her husband, 38 for both. Sister is also in quarantine next 2 weeks being around my grandmother. Her husband is somewhat immunodeficient after a really bad ulcerative colitis flare up where he went from 190 to 130 in 2 months. Both have been working from home until recently when my sister started going back to her 2 person law office.

Aunt and Uncle- 65 and 64. Both were Covid positive about a month ago but made it through and are negative now.

Aunt and uncle, 52 and 51. Uncle goes to work regularly at same office as my father. Aunt goes to store for groceries masked up and also does her duty on school board at meetings masked up. Both are quarantine next 2 weeks due to my grandmother.

Cousin and her husband, 22 each. Both mostly working from home

Cousin 32, works in an office but very careful with masks.

Cousin 29, works from home. Only sees his girlfriend and a couple friend occasionally.

Cousin 19, freshman at A&M in dorms. Being safe as a college freshman can be.



My thoughts are the most vulnerable (the 3 oldest assuming my grandmother makes it) are immune, and the rest are being safe that we should be ok. Should we all get tested in the days before to give peace of mind to my parents and my somewhat immunodeficient bro-in-law? Just really trying to get a feel about what others would do, especially those making similar plans or those in healthcare.

Not a doctor

Just got home from North Carolina. Sister in law got married. Flew American Airlines.
Work from home this week with some polishing touches to my training.

Half iron man 11/22

Leave Monday evening to drive to Virginia. My wife's siblings and their spouses/kids are coming together. May be a while before we can all get together like this.

Wouldn't miss for the world.

We don't see her family often. Life is too short.

I would say the first step is to just ask everyone what their comfort level is. We discussed this with the elders in my family (namely my two grandmothers, one in her 80s and the other her 90s). Both insisted they would rather spend time with their kids and grandkids at the risk of getting ill, with the argument being they are too old to sacrifice moments like that out of fear of possibly dying. I understand and respect that (and I find that people that age generally have long since lost their fear of death) so we're taking basic precautions while around them but otherwise including them as we normally would.

"Missing moments" doesn't depend exclusively on Thanksgiving/Christmas visits. You can visit your elders/vulnerable at any time during the year, so why put them at any additional risk by vesting so much in a holiday visit this year? They aren't going to suddenly disappear.

Most of us have now invested almost ten months of discipline keeping our loved ones safe, so why toss that by over-emotionalizing a Thanksgiving/Christmas visit when a vaccine is so close? Instead, arrange for a make-up family gathering a few months later next spring, when it now appears very likely it can be done safely with vaccination.

Too many of these posts seem to me to be by people who know in their hearts visits now don't make sense, but are looking for external validation to ease their concerns. If I exposed my 93 year-old Mom to the slightest risk by visiting her and she became ill I couldn't live with myself.

Staying away demonstrates how much you love them, not vice versa, but God bless whichever way you choose to go.

74OA said:

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"Missing moments" doesn't depend exclusively on Thanksgiving/Christmas visits. You can visit your elders/vulnerable at any time during the year, so why put them at any additional risk by vesting so much in a holiday visit this year? They aren't going to suddenly disappear.

Most of us have now invested almost ten months of discipline keeping our loved ones safe, so why toss that by over-emotionalizing a Thanksgiving/Christmas visit when a vaccine is so close? Instead, arrange for a make-up family gathering a few months later next spring, when it now appears very likely it can be done safely with vaccination.

Too many of these posts seem to me to be by people who know in their hearts visits now don't make sense, but are looking for external validation to ease their concerns. If I exposed my 93 year-old Mom to the slightest risk by visiting her and she became ill I couldn't live with myself.

Staying away demonstrates how much you love them, not vice versa, but God bless whichever way you choose to go.

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I'm definitely not going to tell you that you are wrong for your view point but you need to consider how certain you are your mother will be there to see you in the spring. I just lost my 84 year old mother and 73 year old mother-in-law last month. They had terminal illnesses but even without that I still believe you have to take advantage of the days you have left because you never know.

My mother was in a nursing home so she was isolated from us and there was not much we could do but we saw my mother-in-law several days each week to provide care for her and her husband. She even had a birthday party where three 22 year old grandchildren attended and tested positive within two days without transmitting to her. I can promise she would have preferred to see them with the risk she had rather than not see them before she died and at her last birthday party.

Also, does your mom feel the same way as you? Does she want to remain separated until we have a safer opportunity to be together? If she does and you know it, then your advice is spot on for someone similar to you and I would say you are completely right with your view point. But if she doesn't want to wait or you don't know because you haven't asked her or allowed for her thoughts, then I would recommend you do that before you decide to remain distant. Life is too short at any age and especially post 70, 80 or 90.

Interesting perspective you have. I agree on maintaining as much safety as is reasonable. I always wear mask in public places, wash my hands well, advocate working remotely as long as the results are equivalent to in-person, and avoid over crowded situations (I'm not going to anybody's rally or protest).

But I do believe the most important relationships should find a way to maintain safe in-person connections as much as possible for the emotional and mental health of the most needy of the relationship. If my mother wanted to see me, I might put some restrictions on it like sitting outdoors with a mask on and even eating outdoors if necessary but I would make it happen. The idea that going 6-8 months without seeing elderly parents or grandparents when there can be a very small transmission risk of the virus when done in easily safe manners simply because it can't be 100% guaranteed safe would be irrational and succumbing to unreasonable fear for me.

If I allowed myself to believe I was that restricted by this danger, I would likewise never get in a car again because the risk of other drivers poor decisions and mistakes and the chance that my seatbelts, airbags and vehicles safety design might not effectively protect me or my passengers from the risk of travel would permanently confine me to home.

For me and the way I look at life, that is not living. We were made for relationship and not extended solitude. To embrace extended solitude is not healthy for anyone. And I would advise you to consider your motivation. You said, if you exposed your mother to the slightest risk by visiting her and she became ill, you could not live with yourself. You also said you would not risk your mother's health for a nice-to-have visit even if she asked you because if she passed as a result of your visit you would feel worse. I hope you realize those statements convey that you are more concerned about how you might feel than how your mother does feel if she is saying she wants to see you in spite of the risk. And I bet 92 out of 93 ninety-three year old people would tell you there is no such thing as truly premature death at 93 even if I know what you really mean by that statement.

So while I can't align with your way of thinking, you have to live your life with your decisions just like I do with mine. You made it this far doing things your way and I have no reason to believe you are joyful and satisfied with the outcomes. So I would be arrogant and foolish to say you are wrong to hold to your beliefs. But I hope in some way my thoughts can be a positive influence for you even if you totally disagree with them. Heck, maybe they will just help you be more certain you are doing the right thing. Either way I want you to know that I am going to say a prayer for you and your mother as soon as I post this. I pray for your wisdom to be great, your mother's health to be strong and for you and your mother to be reunited again soon in a very safe manner that you are both confident to enjoy. Blessings to you and to her.

AggieBiker said:

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Interesting perspective you have. I agree on maintaining as much safety as is reasonable. I always wear mask in public places, wash my hands well, advocate working remotely as long as the results are equivalent to in-person, and avoid over crowded situations (I'm not going to anybody's rally or protest).

But I do believe the most important relationships should find a way to maintain safe in-person connections as much as possible for the emotional and mental health of the most needy of the relationship. If my mother wanted to see me, I might put some restrictions on it like sitting outdoors with a mask on and even eating outdoors if necessary but I would make it happen. The idea that going 6-8 months without seeing elderly parents or grandparents when there can be a very small transmission risk of the virus when done in easily safe manners simply because it can't be 100% guaranteed safe would be irrational and succumbing to unreasonable fear for me.

If I allowed myself to believe I was that restricted by this danger, I would likewise never get in a car again because the risk of other drivers poor decisions and mistakes and the chance that my seatbelts, airbags and vehicles safety design might not effectively protect me or my passengers from the risk of travel would permanently confine me to home.

For me and the way I look at life, that is not living. We were made for relationship and not extended solitude. To embrace extended solitude is not healthy for anyone. And I would advise you to consider your motivation. You said, if you exposed your mother to the slightest risk by visiting her and she became ill, you could not live with yourself. You also said you would not risk your mother's health for a nice-to-have visit even if she asked you because if she passed as a result of your visit you would feel worse. I hope you realize those statements convey that you are more concerned about how you might feel than how your mother does feel if she is saying she wants to see you in spite of the risk. And I bet 92 out of 93 ninety-three year old people would tell you there is no such thing as truly premature death at 93 even if I know what you really mean by that statement.

So while I can't align with your way of thinking, you have to live your life with your decisions just like I do with mine. You made it this far doing things your way and I have no reason to believe you are joyful and satisfied with the outcomes. So I would be arrogant and foolish to say you are wrong to hold to your beliefs. But I hope in some way my thoughts can be a positive influence for you even if you totally disagree with them. Heck, maybe they will just help you be more certain you are doing the right thing. Either way I want you to know that I am going to say a prayer for you and your mother as soon as I post this. I pray for your wisdom to be great, your mother's health to be strong and for you and your mother to be reunited again soon in a very safe manner that you are both confident to enjoy. Blessings to you and to her.

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My grandma passed May this year at 94.

She had a stroke early in the year around January, and was undergoing rehab at hospice care. She quit rehab because she's 94 and just wanted to enjoy the rest of her life with family.

Then covid hit. She was isolated in her room, away from friends, away from family, with minimal contact from staff from March thru May. She was confused and didn't understand why no one would come see her. Family tried to wave from outside the window. She gave up on life, and her body started shutting down.

My aunt and cousin decided enough was enough - covid be damned - and signed a bunch of forms to get her out of hospice to live out the rest of her life in earth in a loving home surrounded by family.

By the time she got home death rattle had set in. She lived a few more days while family stopped by to speak to her mostly lifeless body.

Now tell me which is the more loving way to treat someone in their 90s? Alone for 7 months on end, only to die of loneliness and giving up? Or surrounded by family, from covid?

EDIT: I am quoting AggieBiker because I agree, and this personal story explains why I agree. Allowing someone to die alone after spending 7+ months in isolation, and not saying goodbye, is FAR worse than dying with covid surrounded by family. Especially if their wish for the last years of their life is to spend time with family on what could be their last Christmas.

I appreciate your encouragement to me and how I see things. I appreciate your real life story of why togetherness in spite of risk can be just as valuable. Please join me in encouraging 740A to be wise as he navigates this and pray for him and his mother to be together soon either way. We all need to support one another during these stressful times.

We are not cancelling any family events. If anyone feels unsafe they just stay home.

So far no one has stayed home. My mother at 76 believes in freedom and seeing her family is how she wants to live.

It is your choice to make. There is no wrong answer.

Risk is every where all around us and that was the case long before COVID. Kindness and thoughtfulness and love should be the driving forces for all these kinds of decisions... NOT FEAR. My only real beef is ultimately, I want to be able to make those kinds of decisions for myself and my family and they should be motivated by LOVE.

IT IS FOR NO ONE ELSE to decide how you should make that decision BUT YOU and your family. Not any government, not any doctor, not this board... no one. You should absorb the facts and make the best decision you can and move on... NO MATTER WHAT, Don't be haunted by the decision you DIDN'T make.

Live life! Love big! Best for you and your family!

I lost my 67y/o dad unexpectedly at the end of September. This will be our family's first holiday season without him. Not being together is out of the question. Our immediate family NEEDS to be together.

My mom is very paranoid about covid (as was my dad), so we all agreed to get tested before Thanksgiving and Christmas. We will also be taking safer precautions than normal in the days leading up to both holidays so that she can feel better about it.

One of my close friends had what he thought was allergies and gave it to his dad and his dad died about two weeks later. He's a man and can deal with that, but I don't want one of our kids living with the fact that they gave my 75 year old mom the virus that killed her...regardless of what her wishes are.

We're planning on having her over for Thanksgiving, but we're getting tested after the kids are out of school a couple of days. We'll do our best to make it safe and still have our family get together.