mRNA vaccine is a medical revolution!

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KidDoc
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9:08a, 11/16/20
AG
Have any of the other docs/bioscience people thought about the implications of a successful mRNA vaccine?

This basically means we can program our ribosomes to make antibodies to any protein structure that can be mapped.

Some examples of how amazing this can be:

1) New, more dangerous pandemic- this will happen someday- maybe in 10,000 years maybe in a year. Once this tech is proven we can develop and crank out a vaccine in well under 12 months. This could mean species survival.

2) Antibiotic resistant bacteria- the medical field is very worried about antibiotic overuse generating super-bacteria. How about making a vaccine that generates your own immune response to kill the bacteria? Kaboomie!

3) Vaccines for cancer- if you have a good protein target on a cancer you can make your own immune system crank out antibodies to kill the cancer cells.

Does anyone else see the promise of this tech? It is world-changing IMO.

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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KlinkerAg11
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9:20a, 11/16/20
AG
I was talking to my mom about this.

Is this the biggest advancement in science since going to the moon?

Remove the politics and this is pretty remarkable.
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AgResearch
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9:51a, 11/16/20
AG
mRNA technology has been looked at in Agriculture to break herbicide resistance in weeds. Not sure what happened to the R&D coming through Monsanto but it hasn't made it to market for Ag.
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to KidDoc • 10:07a, 11/16/20
AG
It's definitely not getting the appreciation it should, even within the medical community. It's at least on the level of HAART and curing hepatitis C, and arguably could be the greatest medical achievement since the eradication of smallpox. And to get it done so quickly? Truly a remarkable testament to human ingenuity.

My only concerns are one, any long term complications that arising from essentially reprogramming our cells to produce foreign antigens and two (related to one) the public's fear of a "new" type of vaccine. It's hard enough to get people to take inactivated and recombinant protein vaccines, imagine those same people reading the layman explanation for this.
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to KidDoc • 10:08a, 11/16/20
AG
Also, if you're interested in new approaches to combating resistant microbes read up on bacterio****e therapy. It's really gaining traction for things like NTM and MDR pseudomonas infections.
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to KlinkerAg11 • 10:12a, 11/16/20
AG
KlinkerAg11 said:
Is this the biggest advancement in science since going to the moon?

Remove the politics and this is pretty remarkable.


Mankind's greatest medical achievements in the last hundred years, IMO, are entirely eradicating smallpox and taking childhood leukemia from an illness with 100% mortality to in most cases achieving survival rates of >90%. If this pans out and has the utility across multiple fields we think it might, this will be up there with those.
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KlinkerAg11
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 10:15a, 11/16/20
AG
That's incredible.

I feel like politics has really spoiled how amazing this is. It's going to end this and open up other doors in medical treatment.

Could this technology help cure AIDS?
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DCAggie13y
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10:18a, 11/16/20
AG
Are there any potential side effects or downsides? Isn't this essentially altering our DNA in some way? Could it lead to genetic mutations or cancer? What kind of safety data do we have? Any long-term studies?
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Fitch
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10:23a, 11/16/20
AG
Would love to learn more. From the outsiders perspective it seems like a pretty big deal.

Always a little wary of an "I Am Legend" scenario.
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to KlinkerAg11 • 10:28a, 11/16/20
AG
HIV is tricky because it's a retrovirus that reverse transcribes its RNA into DNA and then integrates that DNA into our genome. This is why the infection is always present even if those on medications.

Eradicating AIDS would not only require a vaccine that generates immunity prior to viral integration into our genome, but the ability to get such a vaccine to the poorest regions of our world where HIV is most prevalent and endemic. It's possible but difficult.
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KidDoc
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In reply to DCAggie13y • 10:31a, 11/16/20
AG
Gumby said:
Are there any potential side effects or downsides? Isn't this essentially altering our DNA in some way? Could it lead to genetic mutations or cancer? What kind of safety data do we have? Any long-term studies?


It does nothing to your DNA. Here is a short 2 minute YouTube about the mechanism.

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cone
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In reply to Fitch • 10:46a, 11/16/20
AG
Fitch said:
Always a little wary of an "I Am Legend" scenario.


same

I just want more info on how the creation and isolation and transmission of the mRNA to the cells is the miracle and there's no long-term autoimmune complications to be expected in comparison to the typical vacc production and injection methods
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Fitch
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In reply to cone • 10:55a, 11/16/20
AG
Between this and CRISPR we're going to have a whole world of new advancements and ethical challenges come up.

If/when people start changing gametes and zygotes I'll start to worry, but probably not before.
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to DCAggie13y • 10:56a, 11/16/20
AG
Gumby said:
Are there any potential side effects or downsides? Isn't this essentially altering our DNA in some way? Could it lead to genetic mutations or cancer? What kind of safety data do we have? Any long-term studies?


It doesn't alter your DNA, it essentially hijacks your ribosomes and causes them to translate foreign RNA to produce a foreign protein (in this case, the COVID spike protein) which is then released from the cell and your body forms antibodies to it.

My concern isn't with respect to altering DNA, but rather the theoretical risk of developing additional derivative proteins via various mechanisms and generating a type of autoimmune response. It's entirely theoretical though and may end up being entirely baseless on my part.
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Infection_Ag11
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In reply to Fitch • 10:59a, 11/16/20
AG
Fitch said:
Between this and CRISPR we're going to have a whole world of new advancements and ethical challenges come up.

If/when people start changing gametes and zygotes I'll start to worry, but probably not before.


If you've ever seen "Gattaca", I can almost guarantee you that sort of technology will become available to the affluent members of society within our lifetime. It's almost inevitable at this point.

It's also a virtual certainty that via our understanding of telomeres human longevity will increase significantly in the next century. It's very likely the first 150 year old has already been born.
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CW Griswold
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 11:10a, 11/16/20
Chris Traeger was on to something

-
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Fitch
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 11:24a, 11/16/20
AG
Yup. Been years since I've seen it but was eye opening to think about and more so now that the technologies are appearing. The telomeres research is similarly fascinating, if not especially more so now that I have a family member living though the end stage implications of chromosome decay.

That all said, I suspect it will manifest very differently than how it's been portrayed historically, though what that will be who knows. Just have to hope (and work towards) ethical guidance for these tools when they're available.
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Windy City Ag
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11:54a, 11/16/20
AG
PBS Nova did a pretty great job analyzing the pros and cons of gene editing. Worth a watch if you have the time.

Human Nature - PBS Nova
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Kyle Field Shade Chaser
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In reply to Infection_Ag11 • 12:38p, 11/16/20
AG
So I have a son who is generally perfectly healthy. 11 years old now. Two years in a row during flu season he got his flu vaccines. Shortly thereafter, each year, within 4-6 weeks or so he developed acute myositis. To the point he couldn't walk from his own bedroom to the living room. CPK levels were through the roof after taking him to Texas Children's. It appears severe damage was done to his anterior tibialis on his right leg here two years later. As he has grown there is a noticeable difference in his legs and leg strength in that area, nearly 60% loss per his rehab person. He is literally unable to sprint. We suspect it was driven by the Flu vaccine.

Is this type of immune response capable from the mRNA vaccines?
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DCAggie13y
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In reply to KidDoc • 1:05p, 11/16/20
AG
KidDoc said:
Gumby said:
Are there any potential side effects or downsides? Isn't this essentially altering our DNA in some way? Could it lead to genetic mutations or cancer? What kind of safety data do we have? Any long-term studies?


It does nothing to your DNA. Here is a short 2 minute YouTube about the mechanism.



Thanks for sharing. Are there any potential negative consequences of sending your cells a set of instructions to produce a protein and corresponding antibodies? Is there any potential the body could misinterpret them?

I'm completely ignorant but see many people saying these RNA vaccines could lead to cell mutations. The people saying that may be ignorant as well but the fear is out there.
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KidDoc
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In reply to Kyle Field Shade Chaser • 1:09p, 11/16/20
AG
Motracicletraficificker said:
So I have a son who is generally perfectly healthy. 11 years old now. Two years in a row during flu season he got his flu vaccines. Shortly thereafter, each year, within 4-6 weeks or so he developed acute myositis. To the point he couldn't walk from his own bedroom to the living room. CPK levels were through the roof after taking him to Texas Children's. It appears severe damage was done to his anterior tibialis on his right leg here two years later. As he has grown there is a noticeable difference in his legs and leg strength in that area, nearly 60% loss per his rehab person. He is literally unable to sprint. We suspect it was driven by the Flu vaccine.

Is this type of immune response capable from the mRNA vaccines?
No we should not see myositis with mRNA vaccines. Flu is a bit notorious for causing myositis so not terribly surprising that a dead flu injected causes a similar immune response. Every year I have one or two patient that get severe myositis with flu infection.

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cone
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In reply to DCAggie13y • 1:48p, 11/16/20
AG
100% with you

non-conspiracy people have been openly wondering about the long-term ramifications of the platform and i haven't read anything official to quell them completely

the worst part of the current discourse is that any skepticism or (potentially misplaced) fear of this tech leap forward gets you accused of being in QAnon
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KidDoc
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In reply to cone • 2:01p, 11/16/20
AG
cone said:
100% with you

non-conspiracy people have been openly wondering about the long-term ramifications of the platform and i haven't read anything official to quell them completely

the worst part of the current discourse is that any skepticism or (potentially misplaced) fear of this tech leap forward gets you accused of being in QAnon
In theory this vaccine should be far less likely than traditional vaccines to trigger auto-immune pathology. Most vaccines give a broad spectrum response similar to a wild infection. This one is making a single specific protein that binds the spike on COVID. The odds of that specific protein triggering an autoimmune process would be incredibly small.

The odds of any wild virus triggering autoimmune disease in someone genetically primed for it is significantly higher.

Nobody will be able to calm those fears though. You will not see 1:1,000,000 type reactions until millions are vaccinated. If your risk assessment for you makes you think that is more risk than you are willing to tolerate, then wait on the data.

I fully expect any mass event to require vaccination. Airplanes, concerts, sporting events, etc.


No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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SportAggie
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In reply to KidDoc • 2:45p, 11/16/20
AG
For the researchers and docs who have done some research into these mRNA vaccines, hypothetically speaking, if there was widespread availability of vaccines and you were able to choose between Inactivated/Live-attenuated/etc. vaccines vs. mRNA for yourself or your family, would you choose to get the mRNA?
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KidDoc
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In reply to SportAggie • 2:56p, 11/16/20
AG
SportAggie said:
For the researchers and docs who have done some research into these mRNA vaccines, hypothetically speaking, if there was widespread availability of vaccines and you were able to choose between Inactivated/Live-attenuated/etc. vaccines vs. mRNA for yourself or your family, would you choose to get the mRNA?
If all showed similar efficacy I would go mRNA>Conjugate (not sure any COVID candidates in this catagory)>Inactivated> Live-attenuated.

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Reveille
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In reply to KidDoc • 3:11p, 11/16/20
AG
KidDoc said:
Have any of the other docs/bioscience people thought about the implications of a successful mRNA vaccine?

This basically means we can program our ribosomes to make antibodies to any protein structure that can be mapped.

Some examples of how amazing this can be:

1) New, more dangerous pandemic- this will happen someday- maybe in 10,000 years maybe in a year. Once this tech is proven we can develop and crank out a vaccine in well under 12 months. This could mean species survival.

2) Antibiotic resistant bacteria- the medical field is very worried about antibiotic overuse generating super-bacteria. How about making a vaccine that generates your own immune response to kill the bacteria? Kaboomie!

3) Vaccines for cancer- if you have a good protein target on a cancer you can make your own immune system crank out antibodies to kill the cancer cells.

Does anyone else see the promise of this tech? It is world-changing IMO.

I have also been following mRNA vaccines closely for some time. This is such a huge development in medicine it is amazing it is not getting more press. Here is paper from 2018 going over all the studies being done. They mention Moderna working on the Zika and influenza virus. But the potential implications in cancer treatments could be huge. Cancers like pancreatic and ovarian which have little to no current treatments unless caught extremely early may now have a potential option if this works well.

As for those worried about the safety when compared to other vaccines, this vaccine should be safer. Instead of putting the entire virus either dead or alive in your body you are only putting a piece of mRNA. This then allows your ribosomes to make in this case just the S protein not the entire viral structure. Your body forms antibodies to that protein and prevents the virus from entering your cells.

In theory this should be much safer as the antibodies are more specific. They are only attacking things with that identical protein. Unlike a virus which has many proteins in it. This is where the cancer benefits could be huge as current treatments in order to kill the cancer cells inadvertently destroys man many healthy cells also. Currently one of the things that makes cancer treatment so difficult is these cells masquerade as our normal cells and our immune system doesn't routinely try to rid us of them. If we can identify specific proteins that essentially unmask them then our immune system as the potential to help us kill them off.

I tell patients with cancer think of a movie with aliens invading the United States but instead of green monsters they take human form. If you know they are all in Dallas then in theory you nuke Dallas and sacrifice the people there for good of everyone else. This is our traditional chemo treatments. Once they are all over the United States you are in big trouble. This is like metastatic cancer.

Now with this mRNA vaccine you have the potential to make all the aliens skin turn green so now everyone knows who to kill. This could be one of the biggest medical breakthroughs in our lifetime.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243.pdf?origin=ppub
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94chem
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4:14p, 11/16/20
Quote:
I tell patients with cancer think of a movie with aliens invading the United States but instead of green monsters they take human form. If you know they are all in Dallas then in theory you nuke Dallas and sacrifice the people there for good of everyone else. This is our traditional chemo treatments. Once they are all over the United States you are in big trouble. This is like metastatic cancer.
Invasion of the Body Snatchers. One of the great sci-fi horror movies of all time. Not the re-make, the original.

Also, Gattaca is the best dystopian sci-fi I've ever seen,

As for mRNA, the body see the spike protein, then makes "antibodies" against it. These antibodies then "prevent" the virus from "attacking" healthy cells. These antibodies - do they nuke the virus, or do they just denature the spike protein, or is it something else? I'm asking because is it possible to make antibodies against tau and amyloid?
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goatchze
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In reply to 94chem • 4:44p, 11/16/20
AG
94chem said:
Quote:
I tell patients with cancer think of a movie with aliens invading the United States but instead of green monsters they take human form. If you know they are all in Dallas then in theory you nuke Dallas and sacrifice the people there for good of everyone else. This is our traditional chemo treatments. Once they are all over the United States you are in big trouble. This is like metastatic cancer.
Invasion of the Body Snatchers. One of the great sci-fi horror movies of all time. Not the re-make, the original.

Also, Gattaca is the best dystopian sci-fi I've ever seen,

As for mRNA, the body see the spike protein, then makes "antibodies" against it. These antibodies then "prevent" the virus from "attacking" healthy cells. These antibodies - do they nuke the virus, or do they just denature the spike protein, or is it something else? I'm asking because is it possible to make antibodies against tau and amyloid?
I was thinking more, "They Live". New vaccine gives our bodies the shades to see them for what they truly are.
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2PacShakur
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4:54p, 11/16/20
AG
It's amazing how much cancer research spills over to so many different other diseases. Have followed the space for some time after working on a personalized cancer vaccine project. As only the target changes and not the platform, you nearly have a process that can develop a vaccine and potentially initiate an immune response against any target out there.
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Harry Stone
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5:37p, 11/16/20
AG
I own an mRNA company. it's been a crazy year.
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bigtruckguy3500
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In reply to 94chem • 5:52p, 11/16/20
94chem said:
Quote:
I tell patients with cancer think of a movie with aliens invading the United States but instead of green monsters they take human form. If you know they are all in Dallas then in theory you nuke Dallas and sacrifice the people there for good of everyone else. This is our traditional chemo treatments. Once they are all over the United States you are in big trouble. This is like metastatic cancer.
Invasion of the Body Snatchers. One of the great sci-fi horror movies of all time. Not the re-make, the original.

Also, Gattaca is the best dystopian sci-fi I've ever seen,

As for mRNA, the body see the spike protein, then makes "antibodies" against it. These antibodies then "prevent" the virus from "attacking" healthy cells. These antibodies - do they nuke the virus, or do they just denature the spike protein, or is it something else? I'm asking because is it possible to make antibodies against tau and amyloid?
Antibodies vary in mechanism. Some irreversibly bind to an antigen on the invading pathogen and "neutralize" the pathogen, making it unable to bind to receptor on healthy cells and get inside. Others bind to the antigen and act like a signal flare for other immune cells to come by and engulf/eat and destroy the pathogen.

Tau and amyloid is an interesting target, however crossing the blood brain barrier will likely be the hard part (as it is with most drugs). The size of these antibodies may be small enough though.
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Aggie95
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In reply to Harry Stone • 6:43p, 11/16/20
AG
Harry Stone said:
I own an mRNA company. it's been a crazy year.
quite the humble brag! Congrats and continued success.
Please tell me there's a special place in Heaven for Aggie fans! It's like we are living some sort of penance on Earth.
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In reply to Fitch • 6:59p, 11/16/20
Harry Stone
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In reply to Aggie95 • 7:03p, 11/16/20
AG
Aggie95 said:
Harry Stone said:
I own an mRNA company. it's been a crazy year.
quite the humble brag! Congrats and continued success.


it's actually been years of torture and lots of personal money. it took a pandemic for the world to finally see the potential. we just started working on our own vaccine but not for covid.
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Harry Stone
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In reply to KlinkerAg11 • 7:18p, 11/16/20
AG
KlinkerAg11 said:
That's incredible.

I feel like politics has really spoiled how amazing this is. It's going to end this and open up other doors in medical treatment.

Could this technology help cure AIDS?


i talked about this in May

https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3112196/replies/56556885#56556885
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