Questions about COVID-19 that seem to remain unanswered

3,534 Views | 30 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by waitwhat?
HollywoodBQ
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AG
In amongst all the "news", there seem to be a few questions that stand out to me. I don't believe these questions have been answered sufficiently and I'm hoping this forum can help.
  • What percentage of positive tests are asymptomatic?
  • How transmissible is the virus from asymptomatic carriers as opposed to people with obvious symptoms?
  • The rumour about hospitals getting paid $!9,000 for each COVID-19 patient, is that true? Is there any way that such a statement could be construed to be true? That one just doesn't pass the sniff test for me.
  • Can you get COVID-19 twice? If YES, how many times has this occurred? Is this a 10% chance, or one in a million?
  • How long of a window can you test positive? If this virus runs its course in 30 days and I'm getting tested on Monday every week, could I pop a positive test four consecutive weeks?
jopatura
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Can you get COVID-19 twice? If YES, how many times has this occurred? Is this a 10% chance, or one in a million?

Yes, there have been a few documented cases of someone catching COVID twice, with two slightly different strains with a long enough time period to be considered "recovered" between. So far it's looking like one in a million but as more people get reinfected, that'll drop. The symptoms have been worse for some the second time around. It'll be interesting to watch for all the summer cases going into next Spring to see where the odds really fall.

How long of a window can you test positive? If this virus runs its course in 30 days and I'm getting tested on Monday every week, could I pop a positive test four consecutive weeks?

CDC gives you 90 days to recover or continue to test positive without having to re-isolate with no symptoms.

Those are the two I know.
AustinAg2K
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Regarding hospitals getting paid for Covid deaths, that is not true. The $39k is the average medicare reimbursement for a Covid death. Is not just a, "You had a Covid case, here's a bunch of money." It's the average cost for putting someone in the ICU, a ventilator, etc. Depending on the case, some hospitals could get a lot more if the person stays in the ICU a long time, or less if the patient is in and out.

Also, just the logic of the idea that hospitals are inflating numbers doesn't make sense. One of the things the government has been doing in areas with outbreaks is stopping elective surgeries. The amount of money hospitals lose from stopping elective surgeries drawfs the amount they get from Covid reimbursement. From a financial perspective, it's far better for a hospital to remain open for all possible procedures.
F2Aggie
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How is China doing?
We are seeing large 2nd waves months and months after initial onset.
PJYoung
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F2Aggie said:

How is China doing?
We are seeing large 2nd waves months and months after initial onset.


This was their last reported flare up:


https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-international-news-pandemics-asia-china-77da12921617c2c4ed225cdde17b30fd

Quote:

BEIJING (AP) Chinese health authorities will test all 9 million people in the eastern city of Qingdao for the coronavirus this week after nine cases linked to a hospital were found, the government announced Monday.

The announcement broke a two-month streak with no virus transmissions reported within China, though China has a practice of not reporting asymptomatic cases. The ruling Communist Party has lifted most curbs on travel and business but still monitors travelers and visitors to public buildings for signs of infection.

Authorities were investigating the source of the infections in eight patients at Qingdao's Municipal Chest Hospital and one family member, the National Health Commission said.

"The whole city will be tested within five days," it said on its social media account.
Aust Ag
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HollywoodBQ said:

In amongst all the "news", there seem to be a few questions that stand out to me. I don't believe these questions have been answered sufficiently and I'm hoping this forum can help.
  • What percentage of positive tests are asymptomatic?
  • How transmissible is the virus from asymptomatic carriers as opposed to people with obvious symptoms?
  • The rumour about hospitals getting paid $!9,000 for each COVID-19 patient, is that true? Is there any way that such a statement could be construed to be true? That one just doesn't pass the sniff test for me.
  • Can you get COVID-19 twice? If YES, how many times has this occurred? Is this a 10% chance, or one in a million?
  • How long of a window can you test positive? If this virus runs its course in 30 days and I'm getting tested on Monday every week, could I pop a positive test four consecutive weeks?

Let throw in, did we finally debunk the whole "wipe everything down, all the time " thing? I don't think I've used hand sanitizer or Clorox in a couple of months.
Capitol Ag
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AG
Another set of questions about long term effects: How common are long term effects from the virus after infection? What percentage have serious long term effects and how does that compare to other viruses?
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Gordo14
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F2Aggie said:

How is China doing?
We are seeing large 2nd waves months and months after initial onset.



My sister was living there until a few weeks ago. People are definitely catching. If you have a fever they immediately give you a COVID test if you go to a health clinic. Mask compliance is really high and people are discouraged from leaving their residences. Furthermore, most local communities require health screenings every time you enter and leave. However, she does think they are doing a good job of isolating COVID positive people, so it's much more under control than say the Midwest right now.
waitwhat?
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HollywoodBQ said:

    The rumour about hospitals getting paid $!9,000 for each COVID-19 patient, is that true? Is there any way that such a statement could be construed to be true? That one just doesn't pass the sniff test for me.

This isn't a rumor. Google it. Medicare/medicaid pay more for Covid cases, and yet more for Covid cases with ventilator usage. Something like $15k more.

The AMA even acknowledges it but goes on to say that we should feel bad for suggesting that any doctors or hospital administrators would be unethical enough to falsely classify a COVID case for more money.

And yes, I paraphrased, but not by much.

EDIT: It's a result of the CARES act or whatever it was that was passed earlier in the year. It includes additional funding to hospitals handling Covid cases.
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AustinAg2K
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waitwhat? said:

HollywoodBQ said:

    The rumour about hospitals getting paid $!9,000 for each COVID-19 patient, is that true? Is there any way that such a statement could be construed to be true? That one just doesn't pass the sniff test for me.

This isn't a rumor.
It is a rumor, because it is presented as hospitals are getting free money for coding a patient as Covid. The money hospitals are getting is for actual services. If a dead body shows up at a hospital's doorstep, they don't get a check from the government. If a patient shows up symptom free, and tests positive for Covid, the hospital doesn't get 10 grand. Hospitals aren't putting people on vents just to get some extra cash. Also, they only get the government money when they use Medicare. If a patient has private insurance, the government isn't paying the hospital.
waitwhat?
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AustinAg2K said:

waitwhat? said:

HollywoodBQ said:

    The rumour about hospitals getting paid $!9,000 for each COVID-19 patient, is that true? Is there any way that such a statement could be construed to be true? That one just doesn't pass the sniff test for me.

This isn't a rumor.
It is a rumor, because it is presented as hospitals are getting free money for coding a patient as Covid. The money hospitals are getting is for actual services. If a dead body shows up at a hospital's doorstep, they don't get a check from the government. If a patient shows up symptom free, and tests positive for Covid, the hospital doesn't get 10 grand. Hospitals aren't putting people on vents just to get some extra cash. Also, they only get the government money when they use Medicare. If a patient has private insurance, the government isn't paying the hospital.
Yes or no: If a hospital codes a death as Covid related for someone on Medicare the hospital gets more money than they otherwise would
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SkiMo
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How about the main question still unanswered...

Why do some morbidly obese old diabetics with asthma, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol survive while a young marathon runner dies?

We have a general idea of who this virus likes but not a complete one
AustinAg2K
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waitwhat? said:

AustinAg2K said:

waitwhat? said:

HollywoodBQ said:

    The rumour about hospitals getting paid $!9,000 for each COVID-19 patient, is that true? Is there any way that such a statement could be construed to be true? That one just doesn't pass the sniff test for me.

This isn't a rumor.
It is a rumor, because it is presented as hospitals are getting free money for coding a patient as Covid. The money hospitals are getting is for actual services. If a dead body shows up at a hospital's doorstep, they don't get a check from the government. If a patient shows up symptom free, and tests positive for Covid, the hospital doesn't get 10 grand. Hospitals aren't putting people on vents just to get some extra cash. Also, they only get the government money when they use Medicare. If a patient has private insurance, the government isn't paying the hospital.
Yes or no: If a hospital codes a death as Covid related for someone on Medicare the hospital gets more money than they otherwise would
As with all hospital billing, I don't believe there is a clear cut answer. It is possible to get more money, but you would have had to have rendered services related to Covid. You do not just extra money for checking a box. If someone comes in for a broken leg, and tests positive for Covid, and all you did was set the leg, you don't get extra money. If someone comes in for pneumonia, and tests positive for Covid, you do get reimbursed at a higher rate than non-Covid for the treatment.

The idea that hospitals are inflating positive numbers for money is the rumor. The hospital doesn't just get money for a positive test. They have to perform some sort of treatment. I suppose it's possible that if someone comes in dead from a car crash, tests positive for Covid, the hospital could put them on a vent and then get some extra money, but it's ridiculous to suggest something like that is happening.
Cancelled
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I don't understand vaccines, but if you can catch Covid again; then how does the vaccine work?
CDub06
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AG
AustinAg2K said:


As with all hospital billing, I don't believe there is a clear cut answer. It is possible to get more money, but you would have had to have rendered services related to Covid. You do not just extra money for checking a box. If someone comes in for a broken leg, and tests positive for Covid, and all you did was set the leg, you don't get extra money. If someone comes in for pneumonia, and tests positive for Covid, you do get reimbursed at a higher rate than non-Covid for the treatment.

The idea that hospitals are inflating positive numbers for money is the rumor. The hospital doesn't just get money for a positive test. They have to perform some sort of treatment. I suppose it's possible that if someone comes in dead from a car crash, tests positive for Covid, the hospital could put them on a vent and then get some extra money, but it's ridiculous to suggest something like that is happening.
This. Insurance or Medicaid/Medicare don't reimburse based on diagnosis alone. They reimburse based on the treatment provided.

Let's say that diagnosis doesn't affect payment, but often times you'll see certain diagnoses tied to more expensive bills because of the level of care provided. That's what we're seeing here.

It's amazing that people think hospitals are "doctoring" the numbers.
waitwhat?
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AustinAg2K said:

waitwhat? said:

AustinAg2K said:

waitwhat? said:

HollywoodBQ said:

    The rumour about hospitals getting paid $!9,000 for each COVID-19 patient, is that true? Is there any way that such a statement could be construed to be true? That one just doesn't pass the sniff test for me.

This isn't a rumor.
It is a rumor, because it is presented as hospitals are getting free money for coding a patient as Covid. The money hospitals are getting is for actual services. If a dead body shows up at a hospital's doorstep, they don't get a check from the government. If a patient shows up symptom free, and tests positive for Covid, the hospital doesn't get 10 grand. Hospitals aren't putting people on vents just to get some extra cash. Also, they only get the government money when they use Medicare. If a patient has private insurance, the government isn't paying the hospital.
Yes or no: If a hospital codes a death as Covid related for someone on Medicare the hospital gets more money than they otherwise would
As with all hospital billing, I don't believe there is a clear cut answer. It is possible to get more money, but you would have had to have rendered services related to Covid. You do not just extra money for checking a box. If someone comes in for a broken leg, and tests positive for Covid, and all you did was set the leg, you don't get extra money. If someone comes in for pneumonia, and tests positive for Covid, you do get reimbursed at a higher rate than non-Covid for the treatment.

The idea that hospitals are inflating positive numbers for money is the rumor. The hospital doesn't just get money for a positive test. They have to perform some sort of treatment. I suppose it's possible that if someone comes in dead from a car crash, tests positive for Covid, the hospital could put them on a vent and then get some extra money, but it's ridiculous to suggest something like that is happening.
Okay, so then what I originally replied to is not a rumor. If someone is hospitalized and dies of something non-covid, but tests positive for covid, then the hospital can mark them as a covid death and receive more money.

As for it being ridiculous to suggest it's happening, I think it's silly to act like doctors and hospital administrators are all saints that wouldn't look for a "victimless" way to make an extra buck. Like I said to someone on this subject recently, the VAST majority of pastors and ministers are standup individuals who love their community and try to be as good as possible. Similarly, I believe (and largely choose to believe, because the alternative is scary) that the vast majority of doctors and health administrators are standup individuals trying to do good.

But if some pastors will abuse children, then some doctors will knowingly falsify records to make an extra buck, if they can.

It's not a matter of if it happens, but how much it happens.
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waitwhat?
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CDub06 said:

AustinAg2K said:


As with all hospital billing, I don't believe there is a clear cut answer. It is possible to get more money, but you would have had to have rendered services related to Covid. You do not just extra money for checking a box. If someone comes in for a broken leg, and tests positive for Covid, and all you did was set the leg, you don't get extra money. If someone comes in for pneumonia, and tests positive for Covid, you do get reimbursed at a higher rate than non-Covid for the treatment.

The idea that hospitals are inflating positive numbers for money is the rumor. The hospital doesn't just get money for a positive test. They have to perform some sort of treatment. I suppose it's possible that if someone comes in dead from a car crash, tests positive for Covid, the hospital could put them on a vent and then get some extra money, but it's ridiculous to suggest something like that is happening.
This. Insurance or Medicaid/Medicare don't reimburse based on diagnosis alone. They reimburse based on the treatment provided.

Let's say that diagnosis doesn't affect payment, but often times you'll see certain diagnoses tied to more expensive bills because of the level of care provided. That's what we're seeing here.

It's amazing that people think hospitals are "doctoring" the numbers.
Okay since nobody else is going to take the time to actually google the words "hospitals more money covid" I'll do it for you:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

Quote:

Jensen said, "Hospital administrators might well want to see COVID-19 attached to a discharge summary or a death certificate. Why? Because if it's a straightforward, garden-variety pneumonia that a person is admitted to the hospital for if they're Medicare typically, the diagnosis-related group lump sum payment would be $5,000. But if it's COVID-19 pneumonia, then it's $13,000, and if that COVID-19 pneumonia patient ends up on a ventilator, it goes up to $39,000."
Quote:

Our ruling: True
We rate the claim that hospitals get paid more if patients are listed as COVID-19 and on ventilators as TRUE.

Hospitals and doctors do get paid more for Medicare patients diagnosed with COVID-19 or if it's considered presumed they have COVID-19 absent a laboratory-confirmed test, and three times more if the patients are placed on a ventilator to cover the cost of care and loss of business resulting from a shift in focus to treat COVID-19 cases.

This higher allocation of funds has been made possible under the Coronavirus Aid, Relief and Economic Security Act through a Medicare 20% add-on to its regular payment for COVID-19 patients, as verified by USA TODAY through the American Hospital Association Special Bulletin on the topic.
EDIT: And yes I'm aware that the article also says that Jensen isn't accusing hospitals of doing it and that the article said there are no known cases of it. But the "rumor" is absolutely true, and this is a case of Murphy's Law.
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Proposition Joe
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CDub06 said:

AustinAg2K said:


As with all hospital billing, I don't believe there is a clear cut answer. It is possible to get more money, but you would have had to have rendered services related to Covid. You do not just extra money for checking a box. If someone comes in for a broken leg, and tests positive for Covid, and all you did was set the leg, you don't get extra money. If someone comes in for pneumonia, and tests positive for Covid, you do get reimbursed at a higher rate than non-Covid for the treatment.

The idea that hospitals are inflating positive numbers for money is the rumor. The hospital doesn't just get money for a positive test. They have to perform some sort of treatment. I suppose it's possible that if someone comes in dead from a car crash, tests positive for Covid, the hospital could put them on a vent and then get some extra money, but it's ridiculous to suggest something like that is happening.
This. Insurance or Medicaid/Medicare don't reimburse based on diagnosis alone. They reimburse based on the treatment provided.

Let's say that diagnosis doesn't affect payment, but often times you'll see certain diagnoses tied to more expensive bills because of the level of care provided. That's what we're seeing here.

It's amazing that people think hospitals are "doctoring" the numbers.

Why is that amazing? The President of the United States said it was true!
AustinAg2K
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waitwhat? said:

But the "rumor" is absolutely true


The rumor, as presented in the original post, is not true.

"The rumour about hospitals getting paid $!9,000 for each COVID-19 patient, is that true?"

That rumor implies that just coding a patient as Covid positive gets you free money for not actually doing something. The rumor implies that every time a hospital sees a Covid patient, they get $19K. That's not how it works. Covid patients are reimbursed at a higher rate, but you actually have to be performing some sort of treatment for Covid. And even then, it's not some sort of flat fee. If a patient comes in for a fever and tests positive and you tell them to go home and rest, it might net you an extra $20. If they are put on a vent for two weeks, it might get you an extra $10k. It all depends on what the actual treatment is.

Doctors are not paid for a diagnosis. Each Covid-19 patient doesn't guarantee a hospital $19,000.

To be clear:
Are certain treatments reimbursed at a higher rate by Medicare if a patient tests positive for Covid-19? Yes.
Are all treatments reimbursed at a higher rate by Medicare if a patient tests positive for Covid-19? No.
Does a hospital get extra money every time a patient tests positive for Covid-19? No.
Are doctor's or administrators artificially inflating positive Covid-19 patients to make extra money? There is no evidence of this, but there are thousands of doctors out there and if you look hard enough, you'll probably find one.
Is there any reason to suspect that number of positive cases in the country are over inflated by doctors and hospitals by a large enough number that it really matters? No.
waitwhat?
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AustinAg2K said:

waitwhat? said:

But the "rumor" is absolutely true


The rumor, as presented in the original post, is not true.

"The rumour about hospitals getting paid $!9,000 for each COVID-19 patient, is that true?"

That rumor implies that just coding a patient as Covid positive gets you free money for not actually doing something. The rumor implies that every time a hospital sees a Covid patient, they get $19K. That's not how it works. Covid patients are reimbursed at a higher rate, but you actually have to be performing some sort of treatment for Covid. And even then, it's not some sort of flat fee. If a patient comes in for a fever and tests positive and you tell them to go home and rest, it might net you an extra $20. If they are put on a vent for two weeks, it might get you an extra $10k. It all depends on what the actual treatment is.

Doctors are not paid for a diagnosis. Each Covid-19 patient doesn't guarantee a hospital $19,000.

To be clear:
Are certain treatments reimbursed at a higher rate by Medicare if a patient tests positive for Covid-19? Yes.
Are all treatments reimbursed at a higher rate by Medicare if a patient tests positive for Covid-19? No.
Does a hospital get extra money every time a patient tests positive for Covid-19? No.
Are doctor's or administrators artificially inflating positive Covid-19 patients to make extra money? There is no evidence of this, but there are thousands of doctors out there and if you look hard enough, you'll probably find one.
Is there any reason to suspect that number of positive cases in the country are over inflated by doctors and hospitals by a large enough number that it really matters? No.
Dude, we're talking about deaths here. That's what the "rumor" has always been about. Inflated covid deaths. And I'm sorry you consider the OP's "rumor" to be false because he guessed at a different number than the actual reimbursement is.

Further, you clearly didn't read the article I linked or even the quote in my post because it said that the payments are made for "covid presumed" cases, and not just lab confirmed. It's a lump sum, not specific to the actual treatments performed. It's like taking the standard deduction on your taxes rather than itemizing your deductions.

It shouldn't be a conspiracy theory to say that some deaths have very likely been wrongly attributed to covid so the hospital makes more money. Stop trying to make it one.
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HotardAg07
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I'm sorry but I think you need to reread the article you posted. It clearly says that there is no lump sum amount for covid diagnosis/deaths. There is a 20% premium from the cares act for procedures that are done for COVID patients. The numbers that Jensen quoted when making that claim line up with average hospitalization bills reported by Kaiser Family Foundation.

The USA today article you posted reference Snopes:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/medicare-hospitals-covid-patients/

And FactCheck.org
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/

Quote:

"There's an implication here that hospitals are over-reporting their COVID patients because they have an economic advantage of doing so, [which] is really an outrageous claim," Gerald Kominski, senior fellow at the UCLA Center for Health Policy Research, told us. And, he said, any suggestion that patients may be put on ventilators out of financial gain, not medical need, "is basically saying physicians are violating their Hippocratic Oath it would be like providing heart surgery on someone who doesn't need it."

Robert Berenson, an institute fellow at the Urban Institute, said the notion that hospitals are profiting off the pandemic as some of the social media posts may imply isn't borne out by facts, either.
Berenson said revenues appear to be down for hospitals this quarter because many have suspended elective procedures, which are key to their revenue, forcing some hospitals to cut staff. He surmised that potential instances of patients being wrongly "upcoded" or classified as COVID-19 when they're not are "trivial compared to these other forces that are affecting hospital finances."

Berenson and others we spoke with also said that hospitals have profound disincentives for "upcoding," which can result in criminal or civil liabilities, such as being susceptible to being kicked out of the Medicare program.
Jensen himself said in a phone interview that he was not alleging widespread medical fraud.

"Do I think people are misclassifying? No," Jensen said. He said his concerns centered on what he deemed "less precise standards" for certifying deaths promulgated by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and how deaths classified as COVID-19 without corroborating positive test results could lead to an over-counting.
Jensen is the one who originated these rumors.
The Big12Ag
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waitwhat? said:

AustinAg2K said:

waitwhat? said:

But the "rumor" is absolutely true


The rumor, as presented in the original post, is not true.

"The rumour about hospitals getting paid $!9,000 for each COVID-19 patient, is that true?"

That rumor implies that just coding a patient as Covid positive gets you free money for not actually doing something. The rumor implies that every time a hospital sees a Covid patient, they get $19K. That's not how it works. Covid patients are reimbursed at a higher rate, but you actually have to be performing some sort of treatment for Covid. And even then, it's not some sort of flat fee. If a patient comes in for a fever and tests positive and you tell them to go home and rest, it might net you an extra $20. If they are put on a vent for two weeks, it might get you an extra $10k. It all depends on what the actual treatment is.

Doctors are not paid for a diagnosis. Each Covid-19 patient doesn't guarantee a hospital $19,000.

To be clear:
Are certain treatments reimbursed at a higher rate by Medicare if a patient tests positive for Covid-19? Yes.
Are all treatments reimbursed at a higher rate by Medicare if a patient tests positive for Covid-19? No.
Does a hospital get extra money every time a patient tests positive for Covid-19? No.
Are doctor's or administrators artificially inflating positive Covid-19 patients to make extra money? There is no evidence of this, but there are thousands of doctors out there and if you look hard enough, you'll probably find one.
Is there any reason to suspect that number of positive cases in the country are over inflated by doctors and hospitals by a large enough number that it really matters? No.
Dude, we're talking about deaths here. That's what the "rumor" has always been about. Inflated covid deaths. And I'm sorry you consider the OP's "rumor" to be false because he guessed at a different number than the actual reimbursement is.

Further, you clearly didn't read the article I linked or even the quote in my post because it said that the payments are made for "covid presumed" cases, and not just lab confirmed. It's a lump sum, not specific to the actual treatments performed. It's like taking the standard deduction on your taxes rather than itemizing your deductions.

It shouldn't be a conspiracy theory to say that some deaths have very likely been wrongly attributed to covid so the hospital makes more money. Stop trying to make it one.
You clearly don't work in healthcare or anywhere related to Medicare auditing and penalties. Since most everyone falls into your category, and also many are conspiracy prone, it is not surprising the rumors have persisted - but it's disappointing.

Has there been an intentionally falsified Covid death among the 225,000 total registered Covid deaths? It's possible or even likely, but I haven't seen proof. Is there a chance the number of falsified deaths has impacted the overall numbers in even the slightest of statistically significant ways? No.
Aust Ag
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AG
Like to see Doc Rev post on this thread, for several reasons.
HotardAg07
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DCAggie13y
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CDub06 said:

AustinAg2K said:


As with all hospital billing, I don't believe there is a clear cut answer. It is possible to get more money, but you would have had to have rendered services related to Covid. You do not just extra money for checking a box. If someone comes in for a broken leg, and tests positive for Covid, and all you did was set the leg, you don't get extra money. If someone comes in for pneumonia, and tests positive for Covid, you do get reimbursed at a higher rate than non-Covid for the treatment.

The idea that hospitals are inflating positive numbers for money is the rumor. The hospital doesn't just get money for a positive test. They have to perform some sort of treatment. I suppose it's possible that if someone comes in dead from a car crash, tests positive for Covid, the hospital could put them on a vent and then get some extra money, but it's ridiculous to suggest something like that is happening.
This. Insurance or Medicaid/Medicare don't reimburse based on diagnosis alone. They reimburse based on the treatment provided.

Let's say that diagnosis doesn't affect payment, but often times you'll see certain diagnoses tied to more expensive bills because of the level of care provided. That's what we're seeing here.

It's amazing that people think hospitals are "doctoring" the numbers.


There was a poster on this board who described a situation with his elderly mother who had .false positive test for covid. She was tested repeatedly until she tested positive.

Suspecting it was a false positive, he had to jump through massive hoops to get her tested again so she could be released from the hospital. Once they got that positive test, they did not want to conduct any further testing to ensure it wasn't a false positive.

Of course the family couldn't visit after the positive test. Heartbreaking story of medical ineptitude.

Hundreds of thousands of people die every year from medical mistakes and ther are countless stories of mistreatment at nursing homes. The medical establishment is not beyond reproach by any stretch.
Infection_Ag11
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Quote:

But the "rumor" is absolutely true

It's true in the same way that it's true to say "Team X hasn't finished in the AP top-5 in 50 years" when that team has finished in the 6-10 range 14 times and the top-25 40 times in those 50 years. The statement is in fact true, but what is being implied by that statement (namely, that team X is an unsuccessful program) is not true by any reasonable metric. It's an example of making a statement in a vacuum using selective data to illicit a desired conclusion by one's audience.

A diagnosis of "MRSA pneumonia" carries higher medicare reimbursement than "Pneumonia due to unknown organism", assuming the totality of my documentation supports that diagnosis and is indicative of the hospital providing the level of care generally required for that diagnosis. And a patient with MRSA pneumonia who gets intubated will bring more Medicare reimbursement than a patient with MRSA pneumonia who does not get intubated. Can we therefore conclude that there is possibly, or even very likely, a rash of physicians falsely coding patients as having MRSA pneumonia in order to inflate their reimbursement? Is the government encouraging MRSA pneumonia diagnosis to inflate the numbers of supposed MRSA infections? Or is it simply that this is a more complicated infection that on average requires a higher level of care, greater healthcare resources and longer hospitalizations?

Look, Medicare reimbursement is not based on a simple diagnosis alone. I can list a diagnosis all day long, if the totality of the chart does not reflect that diagnosis it matters not to the person auditing it. And a pattern of consistent, demonstrable misdiagnosis/overbilling constitutes Medicare fraud and is a federal crime. Many doctors have lost their licenses, and entire facilities have been shut down, for such practices. The penalties are SEVERE.

It is simply not rational to believe that there is a rash of physicians risking millions in lifetime earning potential, and facilities/institutions rising hundreds of millions in future revenue, in order to help prop up short term claims of inflated COVID numbers. To believe such a thing is occurring is not only irrational as it would require the most coordinated and widespread conspiracy in human history, it is to deny the nature of human self-preservation.
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Infection_Ag11
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AG
Quote:

It shouldn't be a conspiracy theory to say that some deaths have very likely been wrongly attributed to covid so the hospital makes more money.

But it is, because such behavior would by definition constitute a conspiracy and the claim is theoretical without the extraordinary evidence required of such an extraordinary claim. It is the very definition of a conspiracy theory. That doesn't mean it can't be true, but rather there is no reason at present to believe it to be so.

I've already explained why it makes no sense for institutions to risk this, and for months it has been extensively explained how this theory stems largely from the fact that those outside the medical/billing field have a very poor understanding of how this process works. If you've never filled out a medical death certificate, don't have a firm grasp of human pathophysiology and have never billed for medical services or audited such things it is incredibly difficult to explain this stuff to the point where you will realize just how absurd your claims are.
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Cepe
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AG
I haven't looked into the numbers but it seems to me that while both genders can get it it seems to hit men harder. Thinking about deaths I've heard about, celebs and such, it seems to be all men.

I know men have double the ACE receptors as women so that may be why.

Anybody have any insight on gender?
Infection_Ag11
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AG
Cepe said:

I haven't looked into the numbers but it seems to me that while both genders can get it it seems to hit men harder. Thinking about deaths I've heard about, celebs and such, it seems to be all men.

I know men have double the ACE receptors as women so that may be why.

Anybody have any insight on gender?


Men smoke more and tend to have a higher number of metabolic comorbid conditions. Men also tend to seek medical assistance later than women for most conditions.
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plain_o_llama
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One of the things that has made Covid 19 so difficult to deal with is the non-uniform nature of the virus and disease.

We have learned to think a disease has a specific course or average case. Little about SARS-CoV2 and Covid-19 lends itself to meaningful "averages." But we want to know what to expect.

For example, we might be tempted to say something like
(I'm making up these numbers)
80% of cases will be no worse than a moderate flu,
10% will be like a significant flu,
5% more are likely to seek medical care but not be hospitalized,
4.5% require hospitalizations but will be discharged
0.5% will die.

Most of us will think we know what that means. But note it presumes a common point of comparison, in this case "moderate flu" and "significant flu". We think we understand what that means but those terms are almost as slippery as what we are trying to define. Yet they are familiar, hence their use.

But there is a seemingly more difficult problem that continues to make discussions confusing. If the above percentages applied randomly across the whole population we might characterize this as having known "risk" outcomes. Unfortunately, this "risk" approach breaks down because things aren't particularly random. That is clear when we notice the extreme variability in case severity correlates with various co-morbidities (age, underlying conditions like diabetes and obesity, ethnicity, gender, etc). So we end up with something like non-uniformity times non-uniformity.

Hence averages aren't particularly meaningful. Yet we are faced with the problem of making general recommendations and policy. Ugh.

I know, I know, TLDR. And I haven't gotten to my point. :-)

These same types of non-uniformity and heterogeneity also apply to the Immunity and Vaccine side of the equation. If this isn't obvious, consider how we come to say both "The Smallpox vaccine is only good for 10 years" and "The Smallpox vaccine provides permanent immunity." The paper you pointed out starts the discussion down that rabbit hole for Covid.

The world is complex. We think it is merely complicated. And we try to make it simple.

YMMV
waitwhat?
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Infection_Ag11 said:

Quote:

But the "rumor" is absolutely true

It's true in the same way that it's true to say "Team X hasn't finished in the AP top-5 in 50 years" when that team has finished in the 6-10 range 14 times and the top-25 40 times in those 50 years. The statement is in fact true, but what is being implied by that statement (namely, that team X is an unsuccessful program) is not true by any reasonable metric. It's an example of making a statement in a vacuum using selective data to illicit a desired conclusion by one's audience.

A diagnosis of "MRSA pneumonia" carries higher medicare reimbursement than "Pneumonia due to unknown organism", assuming the totality of my documentation supports that diagnosis and is indicative of the hospital providing the level of care generally required for that diagnosis. And a patient with MRSA pneumonia who gets intubated will bring more Medicare reimbursement than a patient with MRSA pneumonia who does not get intubated. Can we therefore conclude that there is possibly, or even very likely, a rash of physicians falsely coding patients as having MRSA pneumonia in order to inflate their reimbursement? Is the government encouraging MRSA pneumonia diagnosis to inflate the numbers of supposed MRSA infections? Or is it simply that this is a more complicated infection that on average requires a higher level of care, greater healthcare resources and longer hospitalizations?

Look, Medicare reimbursement is not based on a simple diagnosis alone. I can list a diagnosis all day long, if the totality of the chart does not reflect that diagnosis it matters not to the person auditing it. And a pattern of consistent, demonstrable misdiagnosis/overbilling constitutes Medicare fraud and is a federal crime. Many doctors have lost their licenses, and entire facilities have been shut down, for such practices. The penalties are SEVERE.

It is simply not rational to believe that there is a rash of physicians risking millions in lifetime earning potential, and facilities/institutions rising hundreds of millions in future revenue, in order to help prop up short term claims of inflated COVID numbers. To believe such a thing is occurring is not only irrational as it would require the most coordinated and widespread conspiracy in human history, it is to deny the nature of human self-preservation.
So, let's recap on a few points:

1) I originally responded to the question of whether or not hospitals are paid more for Covid related deaths, which we apparently all agree is true. Hence it not being a rumor.

2) I pointed out that the USA Today article said that there is no known widespread occurrence of deaths being wrongly coded, and that Jensen never said that it's happening a significant amount.

3) I did say that I believe it's almost certainly happening to some extent, which is supported by your statement quoted below, showing that doctors DO on occasion intentionally misclassify things to commit fraud:

Quote:

Many doctors have lost their licenses, and entire facilities have been shut down, for such practices. The penalties are SEVERE.
4) I have never suggested that there is a widespread coordinated effort to intentionally misclassify deaths as Covid related solely to pump up the numbers, which I agree would be a large conspiracy. Unrealistically large. What I have suggested is that there are likely some one off instances of it around the country. That doesn't constitute some large conspiracy, nor does it constitute a conspiracy at all moreso than the other one off instances of fraud which we can all agree happens.

Last, how much higher is the reimbursement for MRSA pneumonia than "Pneumonia due to unknown organism"? Is it in the range of $15-30k higher, the way that a Covid diagnosis is? If it is, then hey that's a fair point. If it's not, then you're comparing oranges to mandarins.

I'm not suggesting that you or any other doctor that posts here is unethical enough to do something like this. But not all doctors or hospital administrators are ethical. And a terrifying global pandemic that has gripped the world in fear with hundreds of thousands of senseless deaths is a pretty good cover IF some unethical doctor were to attempt fraud. And IF the payment for a Covid death is significantly higher than any other coding a doctor could choose, that establishes a pretty significant motive.

Personally, I find it pretty naive to simply assume that there haven't at least been a few intentionally misclassified "probable" Covid deaths.
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