I think there have been many valid points to both sides of the equation presented and I don't think it's right to really say one is better than the other. The decision to take a training trip is a coaching decision and the athletes have no choice but to fall in line with that.

Both methods can be equally effective. I would be willing to bet many of the girls didn't see their trip to Miami as any sort of 'vacation' judging by the amount of work I gather they did there. I'm sure they worked their tails off, just as the guys did. I am willing to bet we will see both paths bear fruit next month. Both programs have already proved in the pool over the past few years that there is little to no mental fragility in their ranks or else they wouldn't have been able to achieve the end-of-the-year success they have already shown.

Blastoff's got the right idea. You're kidding yourself if you actually believe the whole team is composed of guys who don't need a mental break, Ozzie. I would think you of all people would know that it's not like that. That's not to say they're not working their butts off right now though; I'm sure Jay, Doug, and Paul demand results and I'm sure they get them. The fact of the matter is, there are guys who can put on the "mentally strong" hat while they're at practice, but you can't tell me they wouldn't appreciate a change during the holidays and, indeed, benifit from it.

A couple of guys got sent home from Barbados?! wow...must've been a couple of huge screw-up's....

"Besides, I've never before heard someone try to claim that athletes become stronger mentally by staying at home in the comfort of their own facilities." --Well put.

"Stop pretending to be an athlete and move on. A&M is better off with 11 men working towards one goal than 11 men and 7 or 8 boys who need a mental break."
--I think you can have everyone on the team working toward one goal, but you need to consider how to best enable your entire roster to work their hardest. You shouldn't leave out those "7 or 8 boys" in this equation or your answer is going to certainly be less than or equal to Missouri at conference. Enough said.

[This message has been edited by LeverFulcrumPivot666999 (edited 1/10/2009 12:05p).]

Obviously the coaches made the decision to keep this team home. They know these guys a hell of a lot better than we do so I know they must have had the right reasons.

Because of this I think we will see big results at the right time.

nm

[This message has been edited by SpicewoodAg (edited 1/10/2009 7:52p).]

Not quite fast enough Spice

[This message has been edited by texagg09 (edited 1/10/2009 8:13p).]

I'm new to texags but I have been following the Texas A&M swim team for a long time and reading the posts on Texags. For a team to take a training trip could be a boost to the team morale but at the same time it is just the same to not take a trip. I dont know what the argument is

Withdrawn

[This message has been edited by Anonymiss (edited 1/11/2009 1:25p).]

Go Ags

[This message has been edited by Anonymiss (edited 1/11/2009 11:14a).]

[This message has been edited by Anonymiss (edited 1/11/2009 11:15a).]

[This message has been edited by Anonymiss (edited 1/11/2009 1:26p).]

Anonymiss - It seems clear to me that I am not successful here. I merely want to see A&M do whatever it takes to take the program to a higher level (consistently top 10).

I happen to believe that we aren't getting it done on the recruiting front.

If you think we are - then let's just say I disagree with you. That is probably obvious.

I have never questioned the quality of the coaching, the training, or the dedication of the athletes in the program.

I'm surprised the winter training trip thread got so long. I volunteered my opinion as did many others here. Many more weighed in than I bet the OP thought would. Kinda interesting to see the difference of opinion.

If you want to talk about TCU swimmers - go to their message board. Not much swimming talk there. That 105 breaststroker you talk about is injured at the moment. He has gone much faster not long ago and I expect he will again. And he is in a program and university that meets his needs. He happens to love A&M as do others in his family. If I happen to learn something interesting about your personal life or family I will leave that off this board - OK?

As for Texas - If you really read what I have written about them - then you'd know I use them to compare with. I don't think I have ever said anything about their dryland nor any thing they do in workouts. I have seen several of their workouts - but that's just because I have spent a fair amount of time in their pool watching my kids swim (and now dive). I honestly have no idea if their workouts are better or worse than what Jay (or Steve) do. If you are a swimming fan - you would admire at least Texas' accomplishments - as you would Auburn or Phelps or Lochte. I think Bill Byrne compares us to Texas in every sport - as he should.

I need to take a break from here.

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then why have they not got into the top 10?

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When did the Ags finish in the top 10?

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What I don't get from most of you is that you find it so easy to sit behind the lame ass anony"mouse" screenames and bash

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You're sitting behind an anony"miss" screen name and calling out peoples' kids. Real big man.

I'm sure most of us would say the same things in person, there's just not a real-life forum to discuss these things.

The lot of you are trying to claim that these guys are mentally so incredibly strong, yet a little message board chatter throws them off their rockers?

Furthermore, the difference between Other schools' decisions not to take a trip and ours, is that they all have taken trips during the holiday that have amounted to mini training-trips. Texas went to Auburn/Georgia for a few days, several of the top teams (Michigan, I think Cal?, others) are traveling to the SMU Invite in a week. Arizona was in Austin at the beginning of December for an invite, and will be back for a few days at the end of January. Stanford will spend a weekend in Tuscon/Tempe. It goes on. Our boys' only away meets this season, at least according to the schedule, were the Big 12 relays at the beginning of the season, and then the t.u. meet.

There's a difference between not taking a training trip, and never leaving College Station. The boys don't swim a meet period for 2 months. What's the story there?

I love the Ags and want them to do well, but I'm not sure I've ever heard of a coach using this strategy. If it worked so well, one would have to imagine more coaches would adapt it.


[This message has been edited by gobluwolverine (edited 1/11/2009 12:14p).]

When did the Ags finish in the top 10?
1998 I believe...

Its amazing how its OK to attack a program but not the people who attack it?

Go left wingers....

So you're citing 1998 as a measure of the success of the current team/training system?

No one is attacking the team with the same ferocity that you are attacking the posters on this board. We are simply criticizing this particular coaching decision. Are we supposed to simply blindly trust the coaching staff just because they are the coaching staff? They are paid to coach a successful team, and if we feel that what he is doing is not the best thing to do, then I see no problem with us airing our grievances on texags. Discussing sports is part of the entertainment value of them. Simply watching them with silent acceptance is rather dull.
The swimmers don't get all of their gear for free, and scholarships for those who get them because of some altruistic BS about advancing the sport of swimming. They get that stuff to represent the University and to do well in their sport, thereby allowing us, the fans and patrons, pride and entertainment. Just because they're not in a more visible sport doesn't mean that they should be shielded from the same discussions and criticisms other sports see. They shouldn't be on these boards anyways, so what's the diff if we talk about them?

Fact of the matter is that those posting on this board receive no compensation for you insulting their kids and calling them names. If you want to say they are wrong, feel free. But I think the personal attacks are a little much.

[This message has been edited by gobluwolverine (edited 1/11/2009 12:45p).]

Wow! I've been silent on this thread because I don't have a strong opinion on the training trip. I really see both sides of the argument. The bottom line is that the holiday break should be used to put in the most intense training of the season while other distractions are at a minimum. My guess on why they didn't take a trip this year is that they think there is an opportunity to have a breakthrough year for the program at NC's at their home pool & with Sehn back giving them solid diving points. Jay and Doug must feel like staying home is the best thing for this year's situation. I remember last time they hosted NC's in 2001 the team seemed to have an extra level of focus to make a big impression at home.

As for the little personal squable that developed, come on guys. The swimming community is small enough for everyone to know that recruiting is very straight forward compared to other sports and that UT and the other powerhouses are a notch above A&M and the others fighting to get into the top 10 consistently. Claiming 1 top 10 finish a decade ago under a different head coach is just a weak argument. Even though we all know Jay was an integral part of Mel's approach, it was different. At the time Mel would focus on bringing in a boat load of top sprinters to score big points in relays at championship meets. That direction worked pretty well and produced some solid finishes. However, To break into the realm of the top programs it appears that Jay is trying to put together a more complete roster similar to what Steve has done. I can't say that is what his intention is, but from a casual observer that's what it looks like.

Personally, I think our guys have a great opportunity this March to make a name for the program that will go a long way to build future success.

Wow...this has gotten a little out of hand.

The bottom line is that there are great arguments for and against taking a training trip, but it doesn't matter where you are so long as you get the work done that you needed to get done. The girls felt this was best done in Miami...without a fully equipped weight room or a training room for sick/injured swimmers. When girls weren't feeling well, they had to visit the local minor emergency room. They got to enjoy a few days in the sun at a university with facilities that don't compare to those in College Station.

The boys team felt differently. Instead of sacrificing quality of facilities and taking off two travel days to go to somewhere warmer, they stayed in town. However, they were compensated VERY nicely with lots of meal money...which I am sure many of your "sources" agree really helped the pain. Last night, they held an intrasquad meet and most of the times were very impressive.

While the guys team doesn't enjoy the depth of universities like Texas or Arizona, I can tell you that this group of guys has been working their butts off over the break. They will do the best they can with what they have at the end of the season. Going to Miami for a few days wouldn't have changed that. Those that work hard on a daily basis will work hard anywhere...and those that don't will find an excuse to not work hard no matter how tropical the destination.

As for the rest of you, I am disappointed. It is funny that we have so many rookies on this board, people with inside information. My guess is that other than Spice and LOB, you are all members of the swim team. Be real men, don't stand behind your fake screen names, and talk to a coach or captain face to face if you have a problem. And don't personally attack Spice, we all know that swimming isn't the most popular sport...especially mens swimming at A&M. Don't attack the few "fans" you have. Show some class Ags.

I guess what it comes down to, for me, is as follows:

An overriding theme that we all seem to agree on, along with 99% of the swimming world, is that swimming is unique in that training is infinitely more important to the long-term success than meets. In basketball, football, etc., you can practice all day long, but until you play against another team and get that experience, the best training in the world doesn't matter.

In swimming, training is everything. If you swim meets 5 days a week, but don't train in between, then you're not going to show much improvement.

The thing about training swimmers is that it's immensely complicated, especially compared to other sports. There's so many different strokes, drills, yardages, set lengths, etc. that go into it, that there's many different variables that go into the training. And that's just in the pool. Add in the drylands, and the immense mental strain that goes into a sport that's so individual, devoid of communication, and who's training is built entirely around the fact that you're going to do whatever you can for 10months a year to break your body down physically, and just trust that at one, singular, distant point in the future, it's all going to pay off in the form of the absolute fastest swimming that your body can do, and if it doesn't pay off in those 2 or 3 or 4 races, then the last 10 months of your life were a waste.
And the best part is that the theories about coaching are just as varied as the training! There are coaches who believe in weights, and those who don't, those who feel that cross-training is important, those who don't, and those who believe in all kind of spectrums and ranges of sprints, distances, and intensities of training. Due to the variance, it is nearly impossible to prove one method better than the other in any sort of empirical manner, since no one is willing to sacrifice the 10 months it would require to prove one method superior to the other. Swimming training is probably one of the least understood things in all of sports, by anyone, because there's so little that goes into the tactics of competition (aka how you pace a 1000 is much less complicated than employing the 2-deep zone or a motion offense).
And furthermore, opposing sides of 2 decisions can both make you better! If a coach decides to have the guys swim for an extra hour 3 days a week, it might result in a .1 time drop, but if they spent that hour weight training, it might result in a .2 time drop. This complicates things even more.

The above I think we must all agree upon. What follows is my feelings.

To me, it seems as though traveling and competing are mid-season rewards and benchmarks for training. They are not THE most important thing, but they are important, and I think that without them, swimmers are not mentally prepared to compete at their peak level. No human brain can go through the above training without some kind of mental relief, especially while they are expected to take classes and study and such. There are surely other ways to relieve some of the stress, but to me it seems that taking a training trip is an easy way to relieve the stress while still keeping them focused on their training.

In the end, all of the decisions that the coaches make will result in whatever performance the guys show at the end of the year. Obviously, no single decision (including this one) will make the difference between the guys going 43.1's in their 100 frees versus 47.1's, but this decision might make the difference between the guys going 43.1's and 43.3's, and the thing with the swim training is that you have to buy into the fact that everything you're doing is going to get you to that penultimate 43.1, and I think that these guys would be much better set-up mentally to get to that absolute best time, and I think that the mental reprieve would allow for better future training, and the improvement (over the 10 months) from taking at least a mini-trip would have been greater than the improvement (over the 10-months) than being able to keep them in a controlled environment.

And one last thing, if the guys aren't mentally tough enough to go on a training trip and not go out and party and whatever, then they are not mentally tough enough to NOT take a training trip, if that makes sense.

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As for the rest of you, I am disappointed. It is funny that we have so many rookies on this board, people with inside information. My guess is that other than Spice and LOB, you are all members of the swim team. Be real men, don't stand behind your fake screen names, and talk to a coach or captain face to face if you have a problem. And don't personally attack Spice, we all know that swimming isn't the most popular sport...especially mens swimming at A&M. Don't attack the few "fans" you have. Show some class Ags.

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Agree whole heartedly with that, especially the last part. If you're on the team and think you're more right than us, then just sit, read, and laugh all the way to the bank. We're not going to stop supporting Aggie swimming because we think coach made 1 bad call, but we will stop following it if you call us and our kids out on message boards. Especially when you tell us specifically who you are. Not that the swimmers at this school have ever shown any great care for anybody supporting them.

Sorry if I took that last paragraph to mean something different than you did, but that's how I feel about it.

Wasn't claiming that 1998 meant success....GoBlu asked and I answered...As for my previous post. I hope that my point of Anonymous criticism is immature to begin with. The Aggie men will be successful. No Doubt. Why don't we all help them instead of question things in a forum where future Ags might read and listen to the likes of Agswim15...truce I withdraw my previous. Job done.

Tisk tisk tisk Anonymiss, such a hypocrit. "Anonymiss calls out the anonymous, and rips the families". Smashing headline for TexAgs Forum Weekly. Although I must say, I do agree with many of the points you make.

Spice - I can kinda begin to fathom that you actually are, at heart, a fan and supporter of the Aggies, but youre constant references to texas, and frequent questioning of everything that has to do with how they run things, leaves much to be desired. I am fully aware (as are many others on this board) that you ferociously disagree with heir recruiting tactics. But dont expect me to buy that horse dung you speak when you say thats youre only disagreement. You have been posting on here for years about all sorts of things, training, racing, traveling, meet preparation, etc that you dont agree with. You are a good man, and I'm sure the Ags all appreciate your support (yes I still believe that), but you hafta take a step back and realize that it very often comes off wrong on these message boards.

My evaluation of the recent posters, shows a bit of a division on the men's team...that is to say, yes, I believe, though I obviously can't know for sure, like CPA that most of the rookie posters (and a few older posters) are members of the team
Let's take a look shall we?

The White Knights (outside smoke, texagg09, tpog, Anonymiss, smarterthanyou) who seem to be few and far between these days, have fervently supported EVERYTHING that their coaches do, and all the decisions they make. They have sought to explain things to those on this board who appear less informed, and they have defended their team and family through the worst of everyone's attacks, occasionally (more so recently) doing some attacking of their own.

The Dark Side (LeverFulcrumPivot, Agswim15, AgBlastoff) who are slowly showing themselves more frequently these days, are, like CPA said, hiding behind their screen names to go against the ideas that the team is building upon. Not exactly a smart idea fellas. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but c'mon guys, a little two faced about it aren't ya?

Maybe the team needs to sit down and take a long look into each others eyes, and be completely up front with each other. Because this division certainly isnt going to help the team, especially one who is (as has been suggested) relying on that team unity immensly, to become top 10 in the country.

I do agree that personal attacks are not necessary, and do not need to continue (especially not from posters who might be on either of the teams)

I do not agree that members of either team should stay off of the boards, or refrain from posting. They have just as much right as anyone else to voice their opinions, and defend their coaches from attacks. (Those who take the other side of the arguments...not so much. But that's my personal opinion)

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The lot of you are trying to claim that these guys are mentally so incredibly strong, yet a little message board chatter throws them off their rockers?

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Support for this statement? All that "message board chatter" seems like more of a motivational factor to guys/girls, wanting to prove all the doubters wrong, yet again.

Anonymiss - a wise decision to retract your previous post, however its just a little late dont you think? The damage has mostly been done. You should have thought a little harder before you posted.

Now watch, half the people I named as members of the team are going to post "I'm not on the team", "Wrong on that one BigPapa", "You wish", etc, etc, etc. Let's try to keep those types of posts to a minimum shall we?

Haha, maybe the admins will create a "V" tag to go with the ag and spirit tags, that stands for those on varsity sports teams. I'm sure their coaches would be thrilled.

you are right BigPapaB, I am on the team. Does that shock anyone on the board?

Right, cuz every varsity athlete who patrols texags is going to volunteer themselves for this tag.

"Hey look at me! I'm an athlete! WOOHOO!! I'll take your criticisms!"

Gimme a break. Why doesn't everyone who posts on here just put their full name as it appears on their birth certificate, instead of making up fake ones? Then all we have to do is peruse the team rosters to find out who is an athlete.

score one for me! I am a genius. Bet I'm the ONLY one who thought that...

Got one to admit it, now how many more to deny it?

[This message has been edited by BigPapaB (edited 1/11/2009 2:06p).]

I'm glad the discussion is turning more civil. Everyone on here (from what I can gather) wants both programs to be successful. Those in the know can all can set facts straight without the personal insults (and look at lot more professional and classy at the same time).

Spice - I understand where you are coming from and appreciate the dialogue over the years. I know you want what's best for the Ags and as a fan you have every right to ask questions. Just understand that because certain results (i.e. recruiting) don't happen at A&M the same way they do at Texas isn't because the people here are doing any less work than the folks 90 miles west. The Ags are likely doing much more. It's infinitely easier to recruit off Texas' history and national reputation than A&M's.

CPAG -- I really liked most of your post but wanted to clarify a few things...From the information I gathered, the girls did weights at a 24-Hour Fitness chain so I think their strength needs were probably met just fine...I'm told the pool was adequate, as was the weather, so none of their training in the water was affected adversely...Also apparently the girls did work out on both their travel days and didn't receive a single day off the entire time...You do make a valid point about the medical resources available but, from what I understand, that was the only real disadvantage to their trip.

BigPapa, my sarcasm must've gone right over your head.

I'm not sure that the medical thing is even that big of an issue, because they did have a trainer with them, and from what I've heard, the ailments would've likely kept them out of training anyways.

Besides, are you suggesting they would've gotten an appointment at Scott and White (2 months waiting list) or god-forbid BEUTAL any faster?? The athletic department trainers can only do so much, even the staff trainers.

My point is that it is much easier to have timely access to athletic dept. affiliated doctors when in C.S. vs. being in an unfamiliar place. I'm sure the athletic trainer that went with the women did everything she could given the circumstances.

Don't tempt me blue. Your sarcasm was hardly obvious, especially given the opinions you have previous given.

And should I have listed you on the Dark Side of the team? Do you think your sources inside the women's trip are better than either CPAG or LOB?

LOB thanks for your post. My post was never meant to suggest that the girls were unable to get their work done in Miami because of the conditions. I know full and well that Steve and Tracy made sure the girls needs were met and that the girls got their work done (and then some). While a 24 hour fitness would work for the girls, the greater emphasis of weight training for the men means that their needs might not have been met with those facilities. I was simply trying to show that both training in College Station and elsewhere, regardless of destination, has downsides...

I also agree that people from either team should be free to post on the boards. It is important that these athletes that put in so much time should be able to set misinformed posters straight...as well as show some pride for their team.

It is great to see so much interest on a message board about A&M swimming. Like all other sports, posters should be free to question the decisions of coaches. However, that does not give current team members the green light to use this board as a dumping ground for all their grievances. While I do not agree with all the decisions that the coaches make, I respect them enough to know that they are looking at a bigger picture.

Haha, no, you can list me as "not on the team." Because if I were, I'd be at practice right now.

Don't forget that this is texags. We know stuff.

knowing stuff doesn't mean you know the right or correct stuff. Also, why would you be at practice right now? We have today off. If you know stuff, shouldn't you have known that?

Papa, wow. Somebody get this man a medal! Your mental prowless is unsurpassed. Or is it? It would seem that you, as well, might be a little closer to the team than you would lead the rest of us to believe. Now, would you like just my full name or my social security number too? I'll have to double check that and get back to you.
As for your "Dark Side" label, I object. Merely pointing out that it would be nice for the team to go on a trip isn't exactly tearing the them apart. It is well known that there are both up's and down's to taking a training trip and I am damn well entitled to my opinion on the matter. In any case, the decision to stay home has already been made so this whole discussion is rather moot aside from just stating the pro's and con's which is all we're here for anyway.
gobluwolverine-- you make some valid points, but as you say, no one decision is going to make or break these guy's seasons, including the training trip. I think Spice had come to this conclusion as well, and you can all agree on that. I'm sure the team will do just as well as they would have if they had traveled.
I stand by my previous post. "I think you can have everyone on the team working toward one goal, but you need to consider how to best enable your entire roster to work their hardest." There is no doubt that every team has guys who need a mental break and the training trip is one of the easiest ways to give it to them. It works in the same manner as going to a meet. It helps them refocus and stay motivated and it works for the whole team, not just your "mentally fragile."
You all need to go back and read Blastoff's post from the 9th. Anyone who's traveled with a team before knows that they act, train, and race differently than when they're at home; they want to show some pride.
Smoke-- I am shocked. How can this be?!

Nope, because I'm not on the team.

A DAY OFF? MENTALLY WEAK!

hahaha, carefuly blue, you might get blacklisted to the "dark side"

Just so everyone knows, I am a sock user for another poster on this thread. I was concerned about certain retribution for posting about the team members that were sent home last year.

AKA I'm not on the team, tearing anyone apart.

But I still stand by what I said. Then again, as blue said above, I'm sure it's not going to ruin anyone's season, one way or the other. At least, it wouldnt've before the guys got on here and started getting all riled up about it.

DID TEXAGS ACTUALLY AFFECT THE OUTCOME OF AN A&M ATHLETICS TEAM??? AHH A FIRST IN THE HISTORY OF TEXAGS!!

This discussion was fun before the swimboys got on and started raging it up. Maybe some 'roids to go with all those weights they've been doing?

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DID TEXAGS ACTUALLY AFFECT THE OUTCOME OF AN A&M ATHLETICS TEAM??? AHH A FIRST IN THE HISTORY OF TEXAGS!!

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Let's hope this serves to refocus the guys, since they didn't have a training trip to do so (see wink above), rather than letting it piss them off and get distracted.

But seriously, if you guys are just going to be on texags stressing over whether or not us underlings think you should be taking a training trip, why don't you just get in the pool instead? Obviously that USS meet is here this weekend, but I'm sure you could've found somewhere to swim if you really wanted too. Would've been more productive than barking at us.

That's unfair to the guys on the team. They are passionate about their team (and they should be). That's part of what makes them capable of achieving great times next month and in March. Quit baiting them.

Nothing anyone writes on a message board is going to affect anything unless they let it.